STLPCA

I had posted this in the "Safety Harnesses Wanted" thread prompted by the comment by JPS, but moved it for (hopefully) a better discussion. My PCA DE committee has been struggling w/trying to balance safety issues & promoting broad participation, especially for Novices, so I'm interested in your thoughts.

I think JPS' comment reflects a general belief that DEs require less safety equipment than racing. Anyone who DEs a street car balances cost, utility, & safety issues, but we tend to forget that if you leave the track at 90mph in a DE & hit a barrier the forces are no different than had you been racing. The likelihood is certainly less, but the event will be just as catastrophic. In fact, probably worse since at most DEs, there are minimal safety equipment requirements & perhaps fewer safety workers. My PCA region recently had a DE instructor fracture a neck vertebra impacting a wall. Helmet, harnesses and roll cage, but no HANS device. A frightening injury & a sobering reminder that driving a car at speed in a DE involves risks which we shouldn't underestimate just because we do it for fun in our street cars.

The dilemma is where do we draw the line on DE safety? Should we require safety equipment? If so, what?

BTW, this post is here rather than the DE/racing forum because this forum is more active & I'm interested in the thoughts of "casual" DE drivers as well as track junkies.

Greg Fishman

Dan,
I personally think it is up to the individual to determine their own threshold for safety equipement. I think the club should limit its liability by requiring what the factory delivers the car with or requiring a car to meet SCCA/PCA requirements for racing. Any more or less than that and they are (IMO) endorsing a potentially flawed safety system. Imagine a club requiring 6pt seat belts but no race seat or roll bar. What happens when the belts don't work properly in this set up but it was required by the club?
Is a driver's suit neccesary in DE? Probably not. A fire extinquisher? Not a bad idea but probably not neccesary either.
A proper 5 or 6pt harness and roll bar or cage? If you are driving a very capable car then I would believe it is, but that is up to the individual, IMO. A 996TT can easily hit 150mph at many tracks. As you mentioned a wall doesn't care whether you are doing a cool down lap or wheel to wheel racing, there is no discrimination.

I would be interested in what you think about the liability issue of endorsing/requiring certain safety equipment.
I know my PCA region doesn't require anything outside of the normal 3pt belts.

DJF1

IMHO to start requiring full safety equipment from the get go so to speak will dilute the base and newbies will be reluctant to cut up their car so to speak in order to participate. Then again like you said and like Greg said doing a half job with safety equipment will probably have an adverse effect. So my take in this is that for newbies and intermediate drivers, the normal safety equipment as they are now should be inplace without requiring rollbars etc. However once a driver gets more comfortable and the speeds increase along with their experience they tend to push it a bit more and then you have more danger as they will be more likely to explore and push the limits which increases the danger of having off's. In these groups I feel that mandatory safety equipment should be in place like racing seats, proper roll bars with proper padding, a fire extinguisher and 5 or 6 point belts. Furthermore I think R tires should not be allowed in the newbie/intermediate groups and only allowed in fully equiped cars as if a driver is spending money on them he/she wants to go faster, push the limits higher with again the increased danger of an accident.

Furthermore I would like to address the matter of the tracks themselves!
Very few tracks meet FIA requirements with some beeing literally wall canyons like my new home track in Vancouver. While we are all talking about car safety I think its about time to talk about track safety. I believe as the DE's are so popular , the organizations should start pushing for track improvements as well with boycotting unsafe tracks! A recent nasty accident at the TWS club race was in my view because of a nasty bump on the track. If the track was smooth I'm convinced the accident would not have happened. I think its up to us to try and push the matter and improve track safety! A place like Putnam for example with the exeption of one corner is a really safe venue with plenty of runoff areas which will minimize the inherent dangers of track driving. A place like the mission race track with almost no run off areas and armco waiting to bite you at every oportunity I think is a track that should not be used at all! Sometimes I see posts about certain walls that are waiting to bite you like the famous kink at Road America and while I have not driven there for me I do not understand why improvements cannot be done in order not to have that wall waiting to bite you for your mistake!!!
DE's have become very popular and tracks nowdays make a substancial amount of money from us participating. Is it too much to start asking them to invest in our safety?

RedlineMan

Hmmm....

Dan, you must not spend much time on the DE forum . We have had EXTENSIVE, EXHAUSTIVE discussions this winter on practically every safety issue you can think of. There has been a MASSIVE amount of information, speculation, and theory offered, and this has led to much greater enlightenment amongst the participants, me included.

I would encourage everyone who is interested in such topics to peruse the DE forum and wade through all the lengthy threads dedicated to this and other related safety topics.

OK... to the point.

I AM 100% WITH GREG ON THIS! I have maintained a similar opinion and stance for as long as I have been involved in safety equipment fabrication and utilization. I will not argue that DE does not involve risk. It certainly does, we must all rationalize that risk every time we hit the track, and we must make sure that the novice students get that picture too.

What I will argue is whether it is up to PCA to make it safe for the participants in terms of equipment. I do not believe it is wise for PCA to get into the race design business. We are not race engineers. We are only enthusiasts. Safety equipment design and utilization is a very complicated matter, and crash dynamics are often extremely counterintuitive.

At such time as solid empirical evidence gained from real world studies presents itself that a certain piece of equipment is helpful in reducing a threat, it should be looked at carefully and everyone should be made aware of it. However, for PCA to mandate any such items is beyond the club's scope in my estimation.

I do indeed have some definite thoughts on a graduated sequence of advisements and even a few mandates, but for now let me just leave it at this point. I would be most willing to carry this on further in that direction if anyone is interested, but I might suggest this thread be moved to the DE forum where it really belongs.

Beyond a certain point, when you tell someone they have to do something a certain way, and they get hurt anyway, you are screwed. Judging that point is the crux and the trick in all of this. Personal Responsibility is a dying notion these days, but in this case it is high time for a resurrection!!

FlyYellow

this is a touchy subject. on one side it is nice to have people participate in these events without a prohibilitively expensive entry fee (i.e. safety equipment). The flip side is something that I did NOT understand (as a newbee to the track) and took sometime to internalize. And that is that safety in a car works as a system. i.e. a cage without a 5 point harness is a really really bad idea or another example that i've seen is a 5 point harness in a cabriolet w/o a roll bar. and i suspect that people don't get the concept of safety in a system. i say that because so many of the rules in clubs are compromises and allow half *** safety systems. In my opinion - you can't compromise on safety. either take a stock car's safety system or require a complete safety system. But things in between really really scare me...

cheers,
boris

Tom W

It's certainly an issue I think about frequently. We have very diverse requirements out here - some groups are fine for DE with straight stock cars and nothing extra (other than a helmet), while the local PCA requires 5/6-point harnesses, fire extinguishers, gloves, helmets and after your 3rd event, a nomex suit.

I bought the Turtle for the extra safety of the roll cage, race seats that actually work with 6-point harnesses and the peace of mind that I wouldn't hurt my daily driver. My wife pestered me to get a fire suppression system instead of a dinky extinguisher and really cranked up the concern level after we saw a car start on fire at our last DE. I also may get a HANS before the end of the year as bike riding has reminded me I'm breakable and I'd like to take reasonable precautions to ensure I enter retirement with full faculties.

However, these are decisions I've made, and expenses I've incurred, as I've decided I'm going to be doing DEs frequently. With increased frequency comes increased risk. I support a measured upgrade requirement for safety equipment. It makes no sense to require $5000 worth of safety stuff for the initial DE events. I think a reasonable progression from stock to the requirements of club racing makes sense. While I think learning to drive at the track is similar to learning to drive a motocycle (most accidents/mistakes happen in the beginnning when the learning curve is steep) with good supervision and instruction a new DE student is not going to do something likely to crash their car (or others cars).

I also believe that choice of tracks for novice track drivers is as important as the safety equipment. I chose to learn at Thunderhill where there is a lot of run-off room and only two walls (front and back straight around the paddock). In my book, it would not be smart to start your first DE at Sears Point or Laguna Seca where there are a lot more walls and a lot less room if you make a mistake.

My $0.02

Brian P

I agree that a 5 point harness with a roll bar is a great combo. I'm not so sure about what's best if you don't have the roll bar.

kary993

After being a passenger in a GT3 that hit a large tire barrier (which was relatively soft) I realized that impacts are much greater than we really realize. I had 5 point belts on with GT3 seats and a rollbar but the side impact directly into the passenger side where I was sitting was quite hard at 60 mph.

I am going toward a Hans device as well as a full roll cage (not bar) in the near future. I just spoke with a vendor today about distributing the Hans device so if anyone is interested I try and get some information about it. At this point I know that there is some professional installation to the helmet that is required beyond getting the correct Hans device for your application. Stay tuned.

Rick

Kary,
You can put the attachments on yourself for the HANS or send your helmet off to have it done. It's very easy and only takes about 15 minutes.
I have a HANS device and for the first session I had it on it bothered me - after that, I haven't even noticed it. The only change I intend to make is to buy the quick releases as at times it can be a bit challenging to get it disconneded from the helmet.
I completely agree with Greg - I think it's up to the individual. My safety threshold is rather low so I invested in some gear quite early in my DE "career". My wife's is even lower so she made me buy a HANS device this winter. I'm now on the prowl for a fire system.
Is it overkill for what I'm doing now? That's hard to say - my objective is to have some fun on the track, go home in one piece and do it in a way that my wife doesn't object too strongly. That's why I have the gear I have now and why I'm still investing. Plus, when I do start racing I'll have already made many of the necessary investments.
Rick

Greg Fishman

The install is not a "professional only" job. I did my helmet last week before I went to Daytona. If you can do some simple measuring and know how to use a drill and a few hand tools it is no big deal. Look on http://www.hansdevice.com/anchorInstall.html for details.
Also this site has good info about fitting a HANS for your application. For most of us we would use the upright adult version. If you are a big guy with over an 18" neck there is another model and then there are models for formula type cars that have a different seating positon.

solsrch

I don't have nearly enough experience to tell anyone what the "right" answer is but I know this - I wanted to learn about high speed handling with my car, I wanted to learn if I was interested in pursueing racing as a hobby, I wanted to experience what my car allegedly has to offer. Fortunately, I got exactly the car I wanted. Unfortunately, that is a cabriolet. Now, just to go to the high speed driving clinic, in preparation for possible attending a DE, I need to purchase and install a roll bar. This is a problem for two reasons. There is a question of affordability this season (I am already doing a suspension upgrade). Perhaps more importantly, I went with a 993 instead of a Boxster because I like being able to put my little ones in the back seats. They have a ton a fun riding back there. All the roll bars I've found have to be removed in order to use the back seats again. So, my choices are alter my car so I can no longer enjoy it on a daily basis, to find out if I even like these events. Or, just stay away from the events. Or to put the roll bar in and then have to take it out between events, assuming I go to more. At this point, I've decided this whole thing is too hard. I'll wait a few years. Maybe when the 993 is paid off in 5 years or so I'll be able to afford a track car and then I'll be one of those clueless clowns on the track with a 951 or something similar, starting from scratch. A long rant, but this is pretty frustrating from my previously uninformed view.

Tom

The factor that allowed me to start this expensive hobby was that I discovered that I did not have to alter my car beyond installing a fire extinguisher and get a helmet. I think that is very important for beginners as who wants to cut up their car and spend a lot for something they may not want to stay with. As I started doing more events, I decided the exposure was great enough to justify roll bar and harness installation. On my second car, I discovered Redline Man's roll bar and it hasn't had to be affected at all.

My feeling is that it isn't the number of events that should determine equipment but the relative speeds and aggressiveness of the run groups. Some of us may have a lot of experience but not wish to push the cars to the most extreme limits. Perhaps clubs need to look at ways of controlling the speed of the groups (such as restricting things like race tires) in combination with equipment requirements. Also more training at de's about safety and equipment as well as driving especially as you progress. That being said I think a lot of this is self policing as we tend to realize as we do more events, and have more risk (more speed, more events), we decide to do more. This is where the safety seminars would come in to educate us on that better.

As far as tracks, I think we should become educated consumers. We don't need to go to tracks we feel are too risky. Still there is something about having experienced places like "the Kink" or "the Corkscrew" that make them special and memorable. I wouldn't want to deprive future generations, but some places are better to begin than others. Tracks without walls are nice but so is elevation change and blind corners.

In the end we cannot make DE's safe we can only minimize the risks and educate ourselves about what is acceptable and what is not.

forklift

This may not even come close to working, but I think if the track had room, 3-4 rows deep of plastic trash cans filled with water would absorb a crash pretty well....and would be cheap. I know on some interstates they have plasic ...containers filled with water at the beginning of gurard rails that divide the road (exits). Have anyone ever tried this at a track?

DJF1

I agree with you 100%. I too do not want to see historic and challenging corners to go away, however run off areas and improvements on them take nothing away from the challenge, just minimize the risk of hurting your self and your car which I think we all agree is where we should be headed. I would much rather "push" my limits on a corner like this knowing that my chances in an off are good and enjoy in full the challenge the corner has to offer, than have the "dont screw up here" hovering in my mind. Much better for the wallet too

Agro1

I've got a great track for you then, actually two.
Malibu Grand Prix
Autotopia Disneyland


Seriously though - if you don't want to tell yourself, "Don't screw up here" then I suggest you don't realize the consequences of screwing up...That being said, don't put yourself in a "can I push it a little more here?" situation if you are not willing to accept (or fall victim to) the potential outcome. I think if everyone adopted such a attitude at DE events, you'd see far fewer "expensive offs", get-togethers and seriously damaging, senseless accidents.