DE safety - how much is "enough?"
04-30-2004, 04:13 PM
#46
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Originally posted by Dan 96C2 St.Louis
Danny
Why don't you join me & a number of others who've added Agrovator to our "ignore list." I no longer read any of his posts & from the responses of those, including you, whose opinions I respect, I'm not missing anything. BTW, he's the only poster on my ignore list, having earned that distinction by routinely disrupting productive threads. Hopefully, he'll eventually get the message & go spew his flame baiting venom elsewhere. Thanks for your valuable thoughts & I hope your back troubles are resolved.
Danny
Why don't you join me & a number of others who've added Agrovator to our "ignore list." I no longer read any of his posts & from the responses of those, including you, whose opinions I respect, I'm not missing anything. BTW, he's the only poster on my ignore list, having earned that distinction by routinely disrupting productive threads. Hopefully, he'll eventually get the message & go spew his flame baiting venom elsewhere. Thanks for your valuable thoughts & I hope your back troubles are resolved.
I hope you guys come to some great conclusions and I hope you are going to share them with us.
04-30-2004, 04:26 PM
#49
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Originally posted by kary993
The comment about race cars in DE's hits home for me because the reason he crashed was because multiple race cars were in a beginner DE group unexpectedly after two days of driving (on the thrid day). As an instructor I realized what was happening to him and continued to instruct him to let those cars pass. He followed those instructions, but by the time the fourth race car taunted him and frankly pissed him off in a lap and half of running, he decided to push at a most inopportune time.
The comment about race cars in DE's hits home for me because the reason he crashed was because multiple race cars were in a beginner DE group unexpectedly after two days of driving (on the thrid day). As an instructor I realized what was happening to him and continued to instruct him to let those cars pass. He followed those instructions, but by the time the fourth race car taunted him and frankly pissed him off in a lap and half of running, he decided to push at a most inopportune time.
That is a cop out. If the driver couldn't stand the heat he should have (with your instruction) gotten out of the "kitchen". My instruction to all students is to over slow after making a pass and also after getting passed. That way the adrenaline stays in check. Your student made an expensive mistake. Unless someone else hit him or ran him off the track it wasn't anyone elses fault. We should all take responsibility for our actions, not put them off on anyone else.
04-30-2004, 04:33 PM
#50
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Counsel
"Ignore" is stress free.
But we need someone watching
to release the hounds.
I'm going back to my knitting now.
(Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Nomex yarn?)
"Ignore" is stress free.
But we need someone watching
to release the hounds.
I'm going back to my knitting now.
(Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Nomex yarn?)
04-30-2004, 04:39 PM
#51
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Thanks, Mike...good one 
I'll be in the basement with my suit on...
Dan, Danny et al. You can ignore me and my posts, but you can't ignore the truth and that fact that I ask the tough questions that ruffle feathers. So enjoy your ingnore function, it won't change the truth.
Greg - I know the guy who wrecked the GT-3...I tend to agree with you. If you're out on the track you better be ready for anything - that's the whole idea of being out there. But on the other hand I do agree that the "full-race" guys should not be running with slower less experienced drivers. Event organizers should know better than to do that becasue it has the potential to be a dangerous situation, but moreso because the fast guys hate being held up
Tough call nevertheless....
I'll be in the basement with my suit on...Dan, Danny et al. You can ignore me and my posts, but you can't ignore the truth and that fact that I ask the tough questions that ruffle feathers. So enjoy your ingnore function, it won't change the truth.
Greg - I know the guy who wrecked the GT-3...I tend to agree with you. If you're out on the track you better be ready for anything - that's the whole idea of being out there. But on the other hand I do agree that the "full-race" guys should not be running with slower less experienced drivers. Event organizers should know better than to do that becasue it has the potential to be a dangerous situation, but moreso because the fast guys hate being held up
Tough call nevertheless....
04-30-2004, 04:41 PM
#52
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Wow...didn't mean to open up a can of worms, but it is a worthwhile discussion. Here is a newbie opinion, take it FWIW.
As always and in everything, safety has a cost, both in $$ and other. I personally do not think the $$$ spent on a 55 speed limit are justified by the few more lives saved. I don't believe in a risk free society where the thrill of living is traded for the safety of existence. That being said, I do believe in calculated risk.
My original post, quoted here, was simply trying to recognize that A) safety comfort varies from person to person (I skydive regularly, with lots of safety equipment, but many would not ever get near a door in a flying airplane, let alone jump out), and B) to me racing does imply a level above what I'm doing in a DE, mostly because of the speed and the wheel to wheel aspect, and my safety equipment would be reflective of the added risk, and to C) contribute to the board for someone looking to solve a problem I encountered as well.
FWIW, and I'm not sure it is worth anything, IF a rollbar had been required for my first track experience, I would still not be on the track, and I would be missing out on one of the truly astounding experiences of owning a Porsche. A PCA AutoX instructor (and now friend) "lured" me onto the track in the passenger seat of his car, giving me a taste. I was still hesitant due to the rollbar constraint on many tracks. Since A) they are $1000 new and B) contrary to what people think, do require drilling in a 993 cab, there is NO WAY I would have installed one without being on the track, in the driver's seat, in my car to see that A) it is a blast, B) you don't have to go ***** out to learn.
So, I found a venue that did not require a rollbar for my first time out, after reading track maps, studying videos, getting instructors, etc. After that, I was hooked, and chose to install a rollbar.
With all that said, I also have approached it differently than many. I spent a year AutoXing before going on the track, so I could learn car control at low speeds first. I have ALWAYS requested instructors, as I ALWAYS want to be learning. I always study track maps and videos, and talk to people beforehand. I chose Thunderhill as my first track because of all the run off areas. My car is bone stock, including tires, which does limit the speeds to lower than I have achieved (before tracking started) on the street.
I also think that an 80mph crash on the freeway due to an idiot in front of me would be worse than a 100 mph crash on a track with likely fewer, if any people around me, and the Porsches are built very well. You can debate that POV, but it is my personal level of safety comfort. I also installed a 5 point harness, but couldn't stomach drilling any more holes, so I attached the sub belt to a bar beneath my seats. My understanding is the sub belt is not load bearing, but just position maintaining, and that makes me comfortable with this. Others might not be. My other 4 points are all mounted in standard, pretty much universally accepted ways.
Once I add track tires and/or suspension, and if I do anything to the engine, I will likely rethink that and other decisions on safety, as it will change the speeds not just down the straights but also through the corners, which is where something is more likely to happen, in my opinion. The fact that I can do 120 down the straight with virtually no one around is not as "unsafe" to me as doing 80 on turn 8 at Thunderhill (and knowing instructors can hit 100 with improved tires and/or suspension) or for that matter doing 70 on the freeway surrounded by idiots on cellphones drinking coffee and yelling at their kids.
So, I applaud everyone's focus on safety. However, the ability to rachet it up with speed is also something that needs to be a factor in my humble newbie opinion in order to keep new blood (and new $$) coming into the sport and making it possible to rent a track in the first place.
Cheers.
As always and in everything, safety has a cost, both in $$ and other. I personally do not think the $$$ spent on a 55 speed limit are justified by the few more lives saved. I don't believe in a risk free society where the thrill of living is traded for the safety of existence. That being said, I do believe in calculated risk.
My original post, quoted here, was simply trying to recognize that A) safety comfort varies from person to person (I skydive regularly, with lots of safety equipment, but many would not ever get near a door in a flying airplane, let alone jump out), and B) to me racing does imply a level above what I'm doing in a DE, mostly because of the speed and the wheel to wheel aspect, and my safety equipment would be reflective of the added risk, and to C) contribute to the board for someone looking to solve a problem I encountered as well.
FWIW, and I'm not sure it is worth anything, IF a rollbar had been required for my first track experience, I would still not be on the track, and I would be missing out on one of the truly astounding experiences of owning a Porsche. A PCA AutoX instructor (and now friend) "lured" me onto the track in the passenger seat of his car, giving me a taste. I was still hesitant due to the rollbar constraint on many tracks. Since A) they are $1000 new and B) contrary to what people think, do require drilling in a 993 cab, there is NO WAY I would have installed one without being on the track, in the driver's seat, in my car to see that A) it is a blast, B) you don't have to go ***** out to learn.
So, I found a venue that did not require a rollbar for my first time out, after reading track maps, studying videos, getting instructors, etc. After that, I was hooked, and chose to install a rollbar.
With all that said, I also have approached it differently than many. I spent a year AutoXing before going on the track, so I could learn car control at low speeds first. I have ALWAYS requested instructors, as I ALWAYS want to be learning. I always study track maps and videos, and talk to people beforehand. I chose Thunderhill as my first track because of all the run off areas. My car is bone stock, including tires, which does limit the speeds to lower than I have achieved (before tracking started) on the street.
I also think that an 80mph crash on the freeway due to an idiot in front of me would be worse than a 100 mph crash on a track with likely fewer, if any people around me, and the Porsches are built very well. You can debate that POV, but it is my personal level of safety comfort. I also installed a 5 point harness, but couldn't stomach drilling any more holes, so I attached the sub belt to a bar beneath my seats. My understanding is the sub belt is not load bearing, but just position maintaining, and that makes me comfortable with this. Others might not be. My other 4 points are all mounted in standard, pretty much universally accepted ways.
Once I add track tires and/or suspension, and if I do anything to the engine, I will likely rethink that and other decisions on safety, as it will change the speeds not just down the straights but also through the corners, which is where something is more likely to happen, in my opinion. The fact that I can do 120 down the straight with virtually no one around is not as "unsafe" to me as doing 80 on turn 8 at Thunderhill (and knowing instructors can hit 100 with improved tires and/or suspension) or for that matter doing 70 on the freeway surrounded by idiots on cellphones drinking coffee and yelling at their kids.
So, I applaud everyone's focus on safety. However, the ability to rachet it up with speed is also something that needs to be a factor in my humble newbie opinion in order to keep new blood (and new $$) coming into the sport and making it possible to rent a track in the first place.
Cheers.
04-30-2004, 04:55 PM
#53
The roll bars do not require drilling that I mentioned. The DAS for the 993 and the Kirk for 964. The Kirk is 400-500$, The DAS is more, perhaps the 1000$, again dirt cheap. This is your life we are speaking of, it's like when someone is saying a HANS is expensive etc....dirt cheap ie...if You don't buy it , don't be surprised by the dirt covering You up...
04-30-2004, 05:00 PM
#54
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With all do respect, Glen, the 993 cab DAS does require drilling. I have it installed, and there is no two ways about it. Everyone here with DAS for 993 CAB (coupe & sunroof are 100% bolt in) drilled. I even called DAS to see if they were going to redesign, or if there was a kit I could get to make bolt in. They had some solid engineering answers, but it was, "sorry pal, you have to drill".
As for the cost, $1000 is relative for people...I can't say what is dirt cheap for each person. For me, not knowing if I'd want to do more than one DE, $1000 was cost prohibitive for the first time out.
Cheers
As for the cost, $1000 is relative for people...I can't say what is dirt cheap for each person. For me, not knowing if I'd want to do more than one DE, $1000 was cost prohibitive for the first time out.
Cheers
04-30-2004, 05:13 PM
#55
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Originally posted by JPS
Wow...didn't mean to open up a can of worms, but it is a worthwhile discussion.
Wow...didn't mean to open up a can of worms, but it is a worthwhile discussion.
You didn't open a "can of worms" w/your original post, but rather expressed what I think is the prevailing view among other than "hard core" DE drivers. It happened to meld w/a current debate w/in my PCA Region & sparked this thread.
If any consensus has emerged thus far it's that:
1. Regs beyond helmet & tech inspection will discourage novice participation.
2. More stringent requirements for faster run groups is logical & likely wouldn't decrease participation.
3. There is a need for national PCA to address this issue to promote more uniformity across regions.
Originally posted by Mike in Chi
Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Nomex yarn?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Nomex yarn?
http://syntheticthread.com/about.htm
http://www.filman.it/yarnlist/technical.pdf
also
Ahmer Textiles in Pakistan carries Nomex yarn.
Email: ahmertex@lhr.comsats.net.pk
Good luck w/your booties.
04-30-2004, 05:13 PM
#56
Wow JPS I stand corrected, I had a 96 Cab I purchased for my wife with a bolt in bar and I really thought it was DAS that did it but perhaps it was another manu, I will see if I can figure that out. As far as the cheap i just put it in relative to life. What is life worth, everything. But only if we use it to help others... But I digress.... BTW I deserve, and should get no respect....lol
Thanks much for your comments they are sincerely appreciated.
Thanks much for your comments they are sincerely appreciated.
04-30-2004, 05:20 PM
#57
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Originally posted by Greg Fishman
Kary, That is a cop out. If the driver couldn't stand the heat he should have (with your instruction) gotten out of the "kitchen". My instruction to all students is to over slow after making a pass and also after getting passed. That way the adrenaline stays in check. Your student made an expensive mistake. Unless someone else hit him or ran him off the track it wasn't anyone elses fault. We should all take responsibility for our actions, not put them off on anyone else.
Kary, That is a cop out. If the driver couldn't stand the heat he should have (with your instruction) gotten out of the "kitchen". My instruction to all students is to over slow after making a pass and also after getting passed. That way the adrenaline stays in check. Your student made an expensive mistake. Unless someone else hit him or ran him off the track it wasn't anyone elses fault. We should all take responsibility for our actions, not put them off on anyone else.
04-30-2004, 05:54 PM
#58
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JPS
"I don't believe in a risk free society where the thrill of living is traded for the safety of existence. "
Wow. That is a nicely turned phrase.
Dan
Must you always be Peabody to my Sherman?
PS I hope no client gets billed for the time you spent on Google.
"I don't believe in a risk free society where the thrill of living is traded for the safety of existence. "
Wow. That is a nicely turned phrase.
Dan
Must you always be Peabody to my Sherman?
PS I hope no client gets billed for the time you spent on Google.
04-30-2004, 07:34 PM
#60
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Wow...if you do know of a bolt in CAB bar (that is PCA certified...I know Boris has a beautiful one that unfortunately is not ok'd by PCA), I'm very interested...although holes are drilled now, good to know for future.
Please let me know. That would be great.
And Dan, succinctly summarized...I'd say virtually everyone would agree with those points:
Please let me know. That would be great.
And Dan, succinctly summarized...I'd say virtually everyone would agree with those points:
1. Regs beyond helmet & tech inspection will discourage novice participation.
2. More stringent requirements for faster run groups is logical & likely wouldn't decrease participation.
3. There is a need for national PCA to address this issue to promote more uniformity across regions.
2. More stringent requirements for faster run groups is logical & likely wouldn't decrease participation.
3. There is a need for national PCA to address this issue to promote more uniformity across regions.