STLPCA

Thanks for your thoughts. Our Region had no requirements beyond tech inspection & Snell 95+ helmet. We allow cabs w/o any bars, although many instructors (IMO wisely) refuse to instruct in them. We have now added a rollbar requirement if a cab is fitted w/R tires. We have considered higher standards for faster run groups, but run into the practical enforcement, legal & political problems some of you have raised. As Greg said, frequently the more regulated, the more liability may be created.

John - You're correct - I don't spend nearly as much time on the DE board as here, although I did search & review a number of threads on point. However, I was trying to get input from "casual," newbie or wanna be DE participants not likely to visit over there. I'm particularly curious if those drivers seriously consider the safety/risk issues & whether part of our Novice classroom training should focus on personal in car safety.

Martin S.

Hans is sounding better all the time...perhaps a full cage too. Neck injuries, assuming you survive, are horrific. Just talk to Rennlister Dylan some time. He is years into a recovery program from a street accident...he is far from 100% I am told.

I'll be talking to Kary at Group 9 about Hans.

DJF1

I really do not appreciate your type of humour on a subject like this.
Furthermore if you are implying for me not to race because I'm scared your should grow up a litle.
Maybe you want to tell that to Michael Schumacher, Gerhard Berger, Nicki Lauda and the other F1 drivers who over the years with their efforts have made F1 tracks safer to go to Malibu as well.

Track safety is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly.

Maybe when you own a race car and actually race you will change your views a little. There is nothing heroic or noble slamming the armco and being in the hospital on a life line because the track you raced on did not invest some of your money to smooth out a bump.

Till then please keep these kind of comments to yourself.

RedlineMan

Danny J;

I think you missed his point. See the winky face? I don't think it was a shot at you. It was simply a plea for everyone to give the consequences some thought. He is correct in thinking that a lot of people don't! You quite obviously do. Cost/benefit should always be in play.

Dan St. Louis;

Good deal. I see your goal with the newbie thing. Good point. I also think your region is doing pretty well with the safety regs. I'm not even sure I disagree with no roll bars in street-tire cabs, as long at it is at the novice level. On the East Coast, Cabs must have roll bars period.

I was asked not long ago to be the PCA National Safety Chairman. At the time I did not have any interest in mundane general safety issues, but the DE aspect did appeal to me. I now almost wish I had accepted. The club needs the guidance to make safety uniform. I'm not done with that yet. More news to follow I think.

Rick

This is a great thread and I think the perspectives vary in part due to the different cars we run, how far we each may be in our DE/Racing pursuit, etc... Most who've posted here are much further along than I am.

Agro1 - what kind of car do you run? How many DEs?

mick

When I read Dan's initial post I decided not to reply as I did not feel qualified given that I had only recently completed my first DE. However after reading Dan's response to his initial post I thought those of you who plan these events might be interested in the thoughts of a novice. I was very apprehensive about doing my first DE. I own a garage queen and the last thing I wanted to do was wreck it. But after a great deal of encouragement (from Dan) and after reading a number of posts as to how much fun they are and how much the newbies learned I decided to give it a try. I am so glad I did. It was a great time and I have a smile on my face everytime everytime I think about it or explain it to someone. More important I learned more about the capabilities of my car than I ever dreamed. But you probably here that all the time. Dan's issue was safety. I was more than willing to invest in a helmet and follow all the rules designed for my safety. However, given my initial apprehension, I doubt I would have tried it if I had had to invest much more. I simply would not have
been able to justify the additional cost in a risk/ reward situation. It just would not have been worth it to me. Now that I have done it once I would be more willing to invest additional dollars if required. So as one of the respondents said you may keep newbies like me away
if you make the initial requirements too great. I was in the novice group which is where I belonged and probably still belong. Not once did
I feel like I was in danger of hitting someone or something. But that was because I knew I was a novice and was willing to push it only so far. I also had a great instructor, who taught and didn't push. By the end of the second day I was pushing much more than I ever expected I would. I credit my instructor for this. I think the key to Dans question for those of you planning these sessions is the instructor. You all must have ***** of iron to get in what is essentially a race car and drive around a track at speeds exceeding 100 mph with someone you may have never met
before. And at the same time you better have the personality to let someone know when they have exceeded their ability on the track. In my DE we were assigned groups from 1-5 with 1 being the novice and 5 being what I would call the racers. I think, while not politically correct, some requirements for the different levels might be appropriate. I happended to witness the accident referred to in Dan's post. It scarred the sh-t out of me. I also took a ride with a group 5 driver in a car just like mine. His abilities were night and day compared to mine. He also pushed the car way beyond what I thought possible. Had an accident occured through a blowout of a tire or someother freak accident I think there would be a much higher chance of a serious injury in group 5 than what I experieced in Group 1. Without belaboring this, I think too many restrictions will discourgage newbies like me, but maybe as you move up in ability more restrictions should apply. Just my 2 cents. And thanks to all of you who organize these events. I am sure they are a great deal of work, but so very, very
rewarding once you try it for the first time. Mick

Flying Finn

It's good people upgrade their safety while they progress in DE and I think most peole eventually do that but if i.e roll bar, 6-point harness etc. were required from beginning that would put more than half the beginners off.

I also think that many people go to DE's because they want to drive their car fast and DE is a safe place to drive fast when you compare it driving fast on public roads.

IMO Requiring more safety devices when you advance in upper run groups might be a good idea but not when you start.

Agro1

OK then, I’ll dispense with the humor.

Danny - #1, DE events are not "racing". Maybe that is the root cause for so many accidents with guys like you. When you have guys that think they are "racing" on the same track with other guys who are actually trying to learn (which is the whole point of a DE, hence the name), that's when you get problems. Just because you have the money to own a "track car" does not mean you are "racing". You can take my implications to mean whatever you like, the simple fact remains; pretend racing at DE events is a recipe for disaster, I have seen it firsthand. If you wanna race, go race and do it under a sanctioning body that requires FULL RACE EQUIPMENT. Until then, you and your ego are only putting yourself and others at risk. It seems you are looking for someone to blame about a bump in the racetrack because YOUR money should pay to fix that. I suggest you take a better look at the economics of running a racetrack, most of them do not exist to MAKE money. And the fact that you would even compare this to F1 is a joke – F1 is a different ballgame man, actually it’s a different sport and you better bet your *** that Berger and Lauda said to themselves on many occasions “ I BETTER NOT F&#K UP HERE”. Just because you have the means to own a race car, does not qualify you to drive it as such..

Lemme ask you a question, does your “race car” have all of the following: full fire suppression system, fuel cell, 5/6 pt harness, FULL cage, recovery points front and rear, and a master power shut off ? If you’re missing any one of those, you ain’t got a “race car”, you’ve got a pretend race car. Pretending to be something you are not is fine most of the time, but when you do it on a race track you are endangering yourself and others. If my comments are brash and my tone is coarse it’s because the one thing you ARE right about is that track safety IS a very serious matter. However, driver safety and driver ATTITUDE is a more serious matter and is of paramount concern to me. Please do not pretend to know me, I have owned (real) race cars and been racing since I was 15. Nobody ever said seeing someone hurt in an accident is a noble or heroing moment, and for you to assume that I have never witnessed such tragedies is not only arrogant but also misinformed.

Rick - My most recent car was a VARA Shelby Cobra (replica). Before that, I have run SCCA PRO SERIES spec racers, formula fords, Ferrari challange 360 and have probably run a hundred or so DE's.

Agro1

...sorry Rick, couldn't get this into the previous post, but here's a pic of my last "race" car. I never pretended it was FULL RACE, and never drove it that way - the only thing it did not have is a full cage, but it was pretty damn fun regardless. 430hp at the wheel

Rick

Cool car...there was a Cobra replica car (not sure what kind) at the last Mid-Ohio DE I was at; the car looked great, sounded awesome and was fast.
I'll contact you separately from this thread - I've been mildly interested in a Cobra replica for some time but haven't heard of the VARA; I'd like to pick your mind.

Agro1

Thanks Rick, it was a handful. Just to clarify, VARA is Vintage Auto Racing Assoc. The Cobra was made by Superformance.

chris walrod

Agro, you may want to visit Danny's link (below) to some pics from one of his club 'races'


http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/...2003_011_Large

Eric in Chicago

Why does it seem that many serious threads turn into pissing matches??
What is the best color car to buy?
How do these wheels look?
What did you watch on TV last night?
These threads, for me, are not helpful and I ignore them. Bring up a serious topic and all of the sudden, attacks start

Argo1, releax. Danny has a full on race car, with the items you mention. He also holds a PCA race lic. and I have been on the track with him wheel to wheel.
This thread is about saftey and I believe Danny was trying to keep the serious nature of the topic on track.

Sorry for the rant, I will go back over to the racing board, home of the Dog Piles

Brian P

On the "upper run groups" requiring more safety equipment comments.... I'd hope that by the time someone gets to the upper run groups, they would see the need for the safety equipment and want to get them. If they don't want to get the appropriate safety equipment, I guess I have a difficult time believing we should enforce it on them. For example, I don't have any desire to ride a motorcyle, but I don't think we should stop everybody from riding them.

I think the best we can do is educate people about safety equipment and let them make their own decisions. We're all grownups here and we have at least half a brain in our heads if we can afford Porsches. Let's trust that people can make the right decision for them.

One minor exception to the above rule. In the novice groups, I think it's appropriate to require whatever safety equipment that is needed to make the instructors happy. Obviously, nobody wants to show up at the track and find out that no instructors want to go in the car.

Greg Fishman

Agro,
You really have a way of pissing people off don't you? Are you this way in person also? You have some valid points but your "delivery" seems to overwhelm that message.

There are tracks and there are corners where you may need to hold something back. I won't run at IRP (Indianapolis Raceway Park) because it is too rough and there are too many bad spots you could go off. I believe in voting with your wallet, if you don't think a track is up to snuff, don't go there.

I have been to Road America twice. Both times I saw some pretty bad wrecks in the kink and I choose to be less aggressive there until I have more experience on that track. Some clubs have gone so far as to have maximum speed limits in that turn due to its unforgiving nature.

This is a good discussion, please let it stay on track.
Thanks