Adm!!??
04-20-2022, 12:41 PM
#121
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When we're talking about things that we "want" versus things that we "need" rarely does comparables really come into play. A steel Rolex Daytona is not worth the price of a lower-end Patek, but people will more than gladly pay more for a steel Daytona than a Patek, despite the Patek being haute horology (or the equivalent of an exotic in the car world).
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detansinn (04-20-2022)
04-20-2022, 03:51 PM
#122
Three Wheelin'
Agreed that the 911 is not an exotic, but how many cars out there offer 4 seats, a MT option and over 470 hp, and a 0-60 time in/around 3 seconds? Be they exotic or not.
When we're talking about things that we "want" versus things that we "need" rarely does comparables really come into play. A steel Rolex Daytona is not worth the price of a lower-end Patek, but people will more than gladly pay more for a steel Daytona than a Patek, despite the Patek being haute horology (or the equivalent of an exotic in the car world).
When we're talking about things that we "want" versus things that we "need" rarely does comparables really come into play. A steel Rolex Daytona is not worth the price of a lower-end Patek, but people will more than gladly pay more for a steel Daytona than a Patek, despite the Patek being haute horology (or the equivalent of an exotic in the car world).
I'm being pedantic, but felt like I had to call it out...
04-20-2022, 04:06 PM
#123
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Nine pages and 122 posts, and Mt. Cowboy, the OP, has never responded. Hummmm.
04-20-2022, 05:14 PM
#124
Rennlist Member
The market is really all over the place. I did not sell them private party - although I bet if I did I would have scraped together several thousand more collectively, but I don’t have the patience for tire kickers or low ballers. I didn’t want to have to wait for someone to arrange financing or have to worry about whether or not I was being scammed. Also if I sold private party, I wouldn’t have gotten the tax credit since I am not a dealer.
In all 3 cases, I traded the cars to dealers or wholesalers/manheim - but not the same ones to the same place, which made it a little bit more of a pain in the butt, although worth it in the end. I live between south FL and the northeast and they are two completely separate car markets. For example south FL dealer offered my very competitive/ high price for my 991.2 TTS trade - but nothing to trade into, dealer up north (non P dealer where I got my 992 TTS) offered me almost 15k less. I would estimate I had to call about 3+ separate places per vehicle to get price checks on each before I picked the place I was gonna sell them to. In the end we were able to make the deal happen and they came up on their trade price. On another vehicle I had, I was literally offered 10k more by just going down the street to another local dealer and asking what their number would be for the trade.
You have to be willing to walk in this market. The dealer will read any sign of desperation and feed off it. The plus side is coming to the table with several high dollar trades, seemed to circumvent any sales associates and in all cases they usually put me in touch with the GM to negotiate.
In all 3 cases, I traded the cars to dealers or wholesalers/manheim - but not the same ones to the same place, which made it a little bit more of a pain in the butt, although worth it in the end. I live between south FL and the northeast and they are two completely separate car markets. For example south FL dealer offered my very competitive/ high price for my 991.2 TTS trade - but nothing to trade into, dealer up north (non P dealer where I got my 992 TTS) offered me almost 15k less. I would estimate I had to call about 3+ separate places per vehicle to get price checks on each before I picked the place I was gonna sell them to. In the end we were able to make the deal happen and they came up on their trade price. On another vehicle I had, I was literally offered 10k more by just going down the street to another local dealer and asking what their number would be for the trade.
You have to be willing to walk in this market. The dealer will read any sign of desperation and feed off it. The plus side is coming to the table with several high dollar trades, seemed to circumvent any sales associates and in all cases they usually put me in touch with the GM to negotiate.
04-20-2022, 09:34 PM
#125
Can someone say "ordinary"? Don't get me wrong, I'd rather grab the keys to a GTS than any other Carrera, but...
04-20-2022, 11:45 PM
#126
Three Wheelin'
It is not the uniqueness of the car that is demanding an ADM. It is the uniqueness of the market. There are many ordinary cars like Hyundias, Toyotas, Kias, Hondas, and even US cars demanding premiums these days.
04-20-2022, 11:54 PM
#127
Drifting
04-21-2022, 07:23 AM
#128
Obviously not ordinary, but I did see a GT3 manual at the dealership for $360k. Someone will buy it. You have to wonder what happens with a market correction later this year and if/how that impacts this overspending.
04-21-2022, 07:27 AM
#129
Drifting
Later this year? Unlikely! Sometime mid/late next year? Perhaps.
04-21-2022, 09:40 AM
#130
Three Wheelin'
Everyone is worried about this market correction and "eating" the ADM. We need to realize that MSRP is just a fairly random reference point that the market moves around. If I am a short term flipper, have car ADD or may need the liquidity in this car, then I agree that buying when the market is high (not the ADM, but the market clearing price) adds significant risk. But if you may need to sell for the liquidity I would strongly argue that you should never be stretching on a car - even at 10% off MSRP. And it you are a flipper and regularly eat the accelerated depreciation of buying new cars and changing out every few years, you have already gotten past the fact that emotions exceed economics for you.
I buy a car with a reasonable guess of how long I will own it and a reasonable ball park prediction of what its value will be when I move on. Those are the 2 numbers that are relevant to me to calculate my annual cost. Where the market is at those point in time is relevant, but MSRP is not. So, I know that buying in a tight market will mean it costs more to own the car than if I bought in a surplus market. But this visceral reaction to an ADM is purely emotional and has no bearing on the economic analysis (beyond the obvious fact that it identifies a tight market).
For the record, I paid a bit more than a 6% ADM in order to get a Targa GTS in the first round of allocations. I pick up my car on Saturday. If I passed, who knows when I get an allocation at MSRP - certainly not for a MY22 and maybe not for a MY23. If Porsche increases the MSRP by 4% (which is on the low end of my "prediction"), then I will have paid a 2% premium to have the car at lease one year earlier. Am I rationalizing? Perhaps. But I am rationalizing with a huge *** smile on my face!
I buy a car with a reasonable guess of how long I will own it and a reasonable ball park prediction of what its value will be when I move on. Those are the 2 numbers that are relevant to me to calculate my annual cost. Where the market is at those point in time is relevant, but MSRP is not. So, I know that buying in a tight market will mean it costs more to own the car than if I bought in a surplus market. But this visceral reaction to an ADM is purely emotional and has no bearing on the economic analysis (beyond the obvious fact that it identifies a tight market).
For the record, I paid a bit more than a 6% ADM in order to get a Targa GTS in the first round of allocations. I pick up my car on Saturday. If I passed, who knows when I get an allocation at MSRP - certainly not for a MY22 and maybe not for a MY23. If Porsche increases the MSRP by 4% (which is on the low end of my "prediction"), then I will have paid a 2% premium to have the car at lease one year earlier. Am I rationalizing? Perhaps. But I am rationalizing with a huge *** smile on my face!
Last edited by Drew46; 04-21-2022 at 09:42 AM.
04-21-2022, 10:12 AM
#131
Everyone is worried about this market correction and "eating" the ADM. We need to realize that MSRP is just a fairly random reference point that the market moves around. If I am a short term flipper, have car ADD or may need the liquidity in this car, then I agree that buying when the market is high (not the ADM, but the market clearing price) adds significant risk. But if you may need to sell for the liquidity I would strongly argue that you should never be stretching on a car - even at 10% off MSRP. And it you are a flipper and regularly eat the accelerated depreciation of buying new cars and changing out every few years, you have already gotten past the fact that emotions exceed economics for you.
I buy a car with a reasonable guess of how long I will own it and a reasonable ball park prediction of what its value will be when I move on. Those are the 2 numbers that are relevant to me to calculate my annual cost. Where the market is at those point in time is relevant, but MSRP is not. So, I know that buying in a tight market will mean it costs more to own the car than if I bought in a surplus market. But this visceral reaction to an ADM is purely emotional and has no bearing on the economic analysis (beyond the obvious fact that it identifies a tight market).
For the record, I paid a bit more than a 6% ADM in order to get a Targa GTS in the first round of allocations. I pick up my car on Saturday. If I passed, who knows when I get an allocation at MSRP - certainly not for a MY22 and maybe not for a MY23. If Porsche increases the MSRP by 4% (which is on the low end of my "prediction"), then I will have paid a 2% premium to have the car at lease one year earlier. Am I rationalizing? Perhaps. But I am rationalizing with a huge *** smile on my face!
I buy a car with a reasonable guess of how long I will own it and a reasonable ball park prediction of what its value will be when I move on. Those are the 2 numbers that are relevant to me to calculate my annual cost. Where the market is at those point in time is relevant, but MSRP is not. So, I know that buying in a tight market will mean it costs more to own the car than if I bought in a surplus market. But this visceral reaction to an ADM is purely emotional and has no bearing on the economic analysis (beyond the obvious fact that it identifies a tight market).
For the record, I paid a bit more than a 6% ADM in order to get a Targa GTS in the first round of allocations. I pick up my car on Saturday. If I passed, who knows when I get an allocation at MSRP - certainly not for a MY22 and maybe not for a MY23. If Porsche increases the MSRP by 4% (which is on the low end of my "prediction"), then I will have paid a 2% premium to have the car at lease one year earlier. Am I rationalizing? Perhaps. But I am rationalizing with a huge *** smile on my face!
04-21-2022, 10:34 AM
#132
Three Wheelin'
Question. Would your smile be as big had you paid over 30% in ADM vs. 6%? And to offset it even more from your purchase, the dealer apparently tried to lowball the OP on his C2S. I'm sorry, but your ADM purchase is on a much lower level. Had the OP said that he was asked for a 6% ADM and a fair price on his C2S, I'm sure more would be a lot less against it.
And I probably should have been clearer in my response, but I was not responding to your particular comment or this specific instance of an exorbitant asking price and then the double whammy of a low ball trade in offer. It was more general response to the discussion here and elsewhere on RL about the magical MSRP line in the sand.
Last edited by Drew46; 04-21-2022 at 10:36 AM.
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Il CP (04-21-2022)
04-22-2022, 09:14 AM
#133
Judging by the stock market activity last few months, I believe that this period of ADMs will end shortly. By the end of this year, ADMs will be seen as a historical aberration and not a new normal. There seem to be plenty of cars arriving in the USA. Demand will sag as the stock market stagnates. YMMV.
Last edited by Jkb545; 04-22-2022 at 09:16 AM.
04-22-2022, 09:36 AM
#134
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Judging by the stock market activity last few months, I believe that this period of ADMs will end shortly. By the end of this year, ADMs will be seen as a historical aberration and not a new normal. There seem to be plenty of cars arriving in the USA. Demand will sag as the stock market stagnates. YMMV.
People are paying ADMs on KIAs. A friend wanted to buy five new KIAs for his company. The dealer told him that there would be $5k ADM on each. My friend balked, but all of those KIAs were sold within a week, with $5k or greater ADM. In the before times, my friend would have gotten a substantial discount for taking five cars off of the dealer’s floor plan.
This is the new normal. It isn’t going to disappear overnight. If the recession does have an impact on ADMs, it will be on cars like those KIAs first, because the weight of a recession isn’t on the shoulders of the wealthy.
If you want to wait it out, that’s your prerogative, but with significant MSRP price increases on deck for the 2023 model year (thanks to global inflationary pressures), it’s unlikely that you’ll be coming out ahead.
04-22-2022, 09:56 AM
#135
Instructor
Doubtful. Demand is so much greater than supply. All of these cars arriving in the US are already sold to customers.
People are paying ADMs on KIAs. A friend wanted to buy five new KIAs for his company. The dealer told him that there would be $5k ADM on each. My friend balked, but all of those KIAs were sold within a week, with $5k or greater ADM. In the before times, my friend would have gotten a substantial discount for taking five cars off of the dealer’s floor plan.
This is the new normal. It isn’t going to disappear overnight. If the recession does have an impact on ADMs, it will be on cars like those KIAs first, because the weight of a recession isn’t on the shoulders of the wealthy.
If you want to wait it out, that’s your prerogative, but with significant MSRP price increases on deck for the 2023 model year (thanks to global inflationary pressures), it’s unlikely that you’ll be coming out ahead.
People are paying ADMs on KIAs. A friend wanted to buy five new KIAs for his company. The dealer told him that there would be $5k ADM on each. My friend balked, but all of those KIAs were sold within a week, with $5k or greater ADM. In the before times, my friend would have gotten a substantial discount for taking five cars off of the dealer’s floor plan.
This is the new normal. It isn’t going to disappear overnight. If the recession does have an impact on ADMs, it will be on cars like those KIAs first, because the weight of a recession isn’t on the shoulders of the wealthy.
If you want to wait it out, that’s your prerogative, but with significant MSRP price increases on deck for the 2023 model year (thanks to global inflationary pressures), it’s unlikely that you’ll be coming out ahead.
Last edited by NYG1121; 04-22-2022 at 09:59 AM.
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Jkb545 (04-22-2022)