C2s vs C4s handling when driving hard difference?
04-21-2021, 04:44 PM
#46
Yep but you wouldn't believe the number of people who still swear by (not at) all season tires. Fully agree with item 5 of 3rdpedal, and the wife's Macan has studded Nokian Hakka 9 (which I just swapped out for the summer Contis), just a shame they don't make anything for the 992.
siberian
siberian
04-21-2021, 04:48 PM
#47
I don't think it applies with this comparison. These cars are maybe 100 lbs apart. They have the same tires. So going with the same tires on both cars the 4s is going to exit the corner faster, the entry speed is the same. How much more entry speed are you gaining with 100 lbs?
The following users liked this post:
surquhar (04-22-2021)
04-21-2021, 04:55 PM
#48
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I don't think it applies with this comparison. These cars are maybe 100 lbs apart. They have the same tires. So going with the same tires on both cars the 4s is going to exit the corner faster, the entry speed is the same. How much more entry speed are you gaining with 100 lbs?
The following users liked this post:
SBAD (04-25-2021)
04-21-2021, 05:00 PM
#49
I'd agree if the cars would have identical times, but I think the 4s will be faster on every corner, especially if its a tight course and that would add up to a faster lap. Has anybody done a lap comparison?
The following users liked this post:
detansinn (04-22-2021)
04-21-2021, 05:02 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA and Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,324
Received 2,866 Likes
on
1,509 Posts
I struggle with the idea that a RWD car can’t get on the gas just as early in a corner. A tire has a finite amount of grip, lateral + fore/aft. In an AWD car applying power mid-corner reduces the lateral grip which is why they understeer more than a RWD one. Of course there’s many variables around weight transfer, drive distribution and the like as well but if someone is saying they cant get on the gas in a well setup rwd car vs. a identical AWD one, I’d say to them slow down a bit more at the entry.
The following users liked this post:
SBAD (04-25-2021)
04-21-2021, 05:14 PM
#51
I struggle with the idea that a RWD car can’t get on the gas just as early in a corner. A tire has a finite amount of grip, lateral + fore/aft. In an AWD car applying power mid-corner reduces the lateral grip which is why they understeer more than a RWD one. Of course there’s many variables around weight transfer, drive distribution and the like as well but if someone is saying they cant get on the gas in a well setup rwd car vs. a identical AWD one, I’d say to them slow down a bit more at the entry.
The best example I could find was this test: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pors...4s-first-test/
It's unfortunate they didn't do a lap anywhere but just skid pad and slalom but it wasn't at the same place or same day. Their conclusion was there a tiny less bit of feel in the 4S. But the cars would be within 1 tenth in all scenarios. For me the wet weather performance would be worth the 2% extra front weight bias.
The following users liked this post:
wsmmd (11-18-2021)
04-21-2021, 05:15 PM
#52
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
C2S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-991
C4S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-991
And for what it's worth, Porsche uses only the C2S to set Ring times. And it's not because they don't like the number "4"
Last edited by ipse dixit; 04-21-2021 at 05:17 PM.
04-21-2021, 05:26 PM
#53
Well, these are for the 991 generation, but for the majority of every circuit tested (granted they are not on the same day with the same driver), the 991 911 C2S comes out head of the C4S counterpart
C2S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-991
C4S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-991
And for what it's worth, Porsche uses only the C2S to set Ring times. And it's not because they don't like the number "4"
C2S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...-carrera-s-991
C4S: https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsc...carrera-4s-991
And for what it's worth, Porsche uses only the C2S to set Ring times. And it's not because they don't like the number "4"
So as a whole the 992 is performing even better as a model generation despite all of them being +250 lbs over 991 weight given those specs.
I don't know why that other 2S with steels weighs so much less than the 2S with PCCB. In the new MT test 4s and 2s had pccbs. Maybe the other 2s didn't have a sunroof or something. It was a low options one.
04-22-2021, 03:48 AM
#54
Instructor
then you would know that race car drivers will almost universally prefer oversteer instead of understeer because they can trail brake into a corner and drift out and got on the power earlier becuase they can rotate the car sooner.
the 911RSR and gt3 and cup cars and all the pure track cars are rwd for that reason.
i am willing to bet in normal dry conditions a c2s will beat a c4s in pretty much every track except the standing start but by the first corner the c2s will be next to it and by the 3rd corner it would have passed it.
04-22-2021, 07:03 AM
#55
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
um...have you ever tracked a car? driven at the limit?
then you would know that race car drivers will almost universally prefer oversteer instead of understeer because they can trail brake into a corner and drift out and got on the power earlier becuase they can rotate the car sooner.
the 911RSR and gt3 and cup cars and all the pure track cars are rwd for that reason.
i am willing to bet in normal dry conditions a c2s will beat a c4s in pretty much every track except the standing start but by the first corner the c2s will be next to it and by the 3rd corner it would have passed it.
then you would know that race car drivers will almost universally prefer oversteer instead of understeer because they can trail brake into a corner and drift out and got on the power earlier becuase they can rotate the car sooner.
the 911RSR and gt3 and cup cars and all the pure track cars are rwd for that reason.
i am willing to bet in normal dry conditions a c2s will beat a c4s in pretty much every track except the standing start but by the first corner the c2s will be next to it and by the 3rd corner it would have passed it.
If you are talking understeer vs oversteer, that doesn’t have anything to do with AWD or RWD. There are plenty of RWD cars, even midengine cars, that understeer. Modern high performance rear-biased AWD cars can oversteer. The AWD system in the 992 allows you to kick out the *** end of the car to your heart’s content. It’s quite good.
The following users liked this post:
surquhar (04-22-2021)
04-22-2021, 07:29 AM
#56
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Professional drivers or rich guys who have bought a lot of seat time in a race car? They may be quicker in the RWD car as a matter of experience due to trust and confidence. Though to be clear, it’s not like a C2S is going to feel like a GT3 at the limit.
Folks love to quote published lap times, but unless it’s their own personal lap time, it doesn’t mean anything. 99% or RennListers won’t get close to those record or benchmark lap times.
I count myself among that 99%. I grew up riding motorcycles in the snow. I can slide a car around on demand, at speed. I’ve posted a top 10 record time at the local gokart track despite a weight penalty of being a middle aged man. With that, I have enough experience to know that I wouldn’t even be close to the 992 record/benchmark lap times posted for these various tracks. Yes, I have the experience to know how f$&@ing slow I am.🤣
I have driven my 992 C4S more than 16k miles. We’re at the point in the relationship where I know exactly what it’s going to do and how it will react. It’s a whole lot of fun. 👍
The following users liked this post:
Russian Mafia (04-22-2021)
04-22-2021, 09:16 AM
#57
um...have you ever tracked a car? driven at the limit?
then you would know that race car drivers will almost universally prefer oversteer instead of understeer because they can trail brake into a corner and drift out and got on the power earlier becuase they can rotate the car sooner.
the 911RSR and gt3 and cup cars and all the pure track cars are rwd for that reason.
i am willing to bet in normal dry conditions a c2s will beat a c4s in pretty much every track except the standing start but by the first corner the c2s will be next to it and by the 3rd corner it would have passed it.
then you would know that race car drivers will almost universally prefer oversteer instead of understeer because they can trail brake into a corner and drift out and got on the power earlier becuase they can rotate the car sooner.
the 911RSR and gt3 and cup cars and all the pure track cars are rwd for that reason.
i am willing to bet in normal dry conditions a c2s will beat a c4s in pretty much every track except the standing start but by the first corner the c2s will be next to it and by the 3rd corner it would have passed it.
04-22-2021, 01:40 PM
#58
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
........
Last edited by ipse dixit; 04-22-2021 at 01:47 PM.
The following users liked this post:
detansinn (04-22-2021)
04-22-2021, 02:37 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Glad you mentioned the WRG's. I had those on my Touareg and when I needed to refresh them they no longer made them as they had switched to the WRG2. That tire is a disaster here but it provided me the opportunity to contact the GM of Nokian in Finland as I asked for help given the dismal result I'd gotten and my lifelong association with Nokian. He confided that they had gone to a more "green" solution and not only changed the compound but also the symmetry of the tire and that they had started getting some negative feedback from folks in northern latitudes. In the exchange I tried to get a set of WRG's but alas they were no longer imported and had none in stock in the US (I used to get them from - yep, NJ and MK Tire which are now out of business as it was cheaper buying and shipping them here than buying locally).
To their credit, Nokian told MK Tire to ship me out a new set of Hakkas (don't remember now which series as it's been 10 years or so) free of charge and told me to keep the WRG2s as summer tires which I did until they got ripped on one of my fishing expeditions. I have Toyos for summer as they're a harder tire and stand the gravel better
Don't know what the status of the WRG2s are now as I've got Blizzak's on my Touareg. But good point.
siberian
To their credit, Nokian told MK Tire to ship me out a new set of Hakkas (don't remember now which series as it's been 10 years or so) free of charge and told me to keep the WRG2s as summer tires which I did until they got ripped on one of my fishing expeditions. I have Toyos for summer as they're a harder tire and stand the gravel better
Don't know what the status of the WRG2s are now as I've got Blizzak's on my Touareg. But good point.
siberian
04-22-2021, 02:57 PM
#60
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Right on the date. It was 2010 IIRC. After the original WRG, in the development of a more "green" solution and change of the tire pattern, things went south and we switched over to the Hakka series. I was mistaken the Touareg is on Hakka 5 on 19" (just changed out the winter tires).
siberian
siberian