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I traded my 991.2 with nearly bald cup2s (one had a nail in it), half life gyrodiscs/pagids, tuned engine and many hours of track duties. The car was certified and put up for sale as is.
How much dealers care when comes to resale varies widely. The past 3 911s I traded, I got a number on them without the dealer even looking at the car. The only time someone that gave me flack for track use was a local Ferrari dealer (carfax with early pad replacement- I do my own work now).
I called the place that tuned your car today. The guy said that they’ve tuned “one” 992 and it was a 4S.
Being that you’ve had your car tuned there, I’m assuming that was you?
Either way, with a N of 1, that’s not a lot of data for me to have confidence in these guys, even though I’m sure they are fine. Sounds like your experience was good but.......only 1? Probably more reason for me to wait...
Very helpful. May I ask, where are you located and which tune did you have? I was thinking of waiting until possibly after the 1st annual service to make sure there's nothing wrong with the engine, but the impulsive side of me is saying, "F&ck it, just do it!" My impulsive side usually wins those arguments.
I called the place that tuned your car today. The guy said that they’ve tuned “one” 992 and it was a 4S.
Being that you’ve had your car tuned there, I’m assuming that was you?
Either way, with a N of 1, that’s not a lot of data for me to have confidence in these guys, even though I’m sure they are fine. Sounds like your experience was good but.......only 1? Probably more reason for me to wait...
They tune plenty of others, but I see your point. I had a prior positive experience with them as well. The comforting fact is that the that particular DME is quite ubiquitous,found in a lot of PAG cars, mclarens among others.
So picked up my car today and had a conversation with the repairs/service manager at the dealership. Bottom line is regardless of what you do to it they will be able to tell. To the degree they can tell you the date you put it on and took it off. Of course, they don’t regularly look for it unless there is an engine failure that could potentially be linked to it. Radio dies and you have a tune? Of course doesn’t negate the warranty on that, but it will to anything related to the engine.
This guy even highly recommended against doing anything performance related until the warranty is out. In his own words: “of course, if nothing goes wrong with it, we don’t care what you do or change in it. But it it does break down and can be related to the changes, you might have a huge bill to cover the related expenses of repair. Up to you if you wanna take that risk”.
Certainly answered all my questions, and I think most if not all the ones raised here. Frankly, while I have the base, I put my foot down today and can’t possibly see wtf I’d personally gain by doing anything to it. I don’t track or do events, so completely pointless for me personally.
So picked up my car today and had a conversation with the repairs/service manager at the dealership. Bottom line is regardless of what you do to it they will be able to tell. To the degree they can tell you the date you put it on and took it off. Of course, they don’t regularly look for it unless there is an engine failure that could potentially be linked to it. Radio dies and you have a tune? Of course doesn’t negate the warranty on that, but it will to anything related to the engine.
This guy even highly recommended against doing anything performance related until the warranty is out. In his own words: “of course, if nothing goes wrong with it, we don’t care what you do or change in it. But it it does break down and can be related to the changes, you might have a huge bill to cover the related expenses of repair. Up to you if you wanna take that risk”.
Certainly answered all my questions, and I think most if not all the ones raised here. Frankly, while I have the base, I put my foot down today and can’t possibly see wtf I’d personally gain by doing anything to it. I don’t track or do events, so completely pointless for me personally.
Thanks for the information. Definitely answers a bunch of the questions I had.
So when evaluating the risk of ECU tuning, the bottom line is either:
1) the engine is defective or had an issue when it left the factory and the ECU tune exacerbates an existing issue that you'll be on the hook for if you tune and it breaks down, OR
2) the tune itself causes an issue and you'll be on the hook for it because of a defective or bad ECU tune.
To accurately handicap that risk we would need to quantify the number of defective engines being produced by Porsche annually (those that have issues within the warranty period) and also how many engine issues whoever you buy your tune from has had. Both figures might be hard to come by, although I think that while non-zero, they are both very low probability.
What is notable and interesting (to me) is that while RL is obviously made up of a very, very small number of owners versus the number of the 911s that Porsche produces (all past models up to present), I've not seen one person post anywhere on RL that they've had a problem with their engine post-tune. Has anyone else seen that? If so, please send the link. The absence of someone posting about post-tune engine issues doesn't mean there aren't any, but not even one anecdote on the most popular place it would likely be discussed about a friend, or even a friend of a friend having an issue?...hmmm
^ Well, I also don’t think that a large number of people are getting tunes done on their cars.
Many are, for sure, but I would guess probably that a majority even of Rennlist 992 owners probably aren’t. I hear more about cosmetic upgrades and perhaps aftermarket exhaust work, but less people stating they’ve done tunes.
Thanks for the information. Definitely answers a bunch of the questions I had.
So when evaluating the risk of ECU tuning, the bottom line is either:
1) the engine is defective or had an issue when it left the factory and the ECU tune exacerbates an existing issue that you'll be on the hook for if you tune and it breaks down, OR
2) the tune itself causes an issue and you'll be on the hook for it because of a defective or bad ECU tune.
To accurately handicap that risk we would need to quantify the number of defective engines being produced by Porsche annually (those that have issues within the warranty period) and also how many engine issues whoever you buy your tune from has had. Both figures might be hard to come by, although I think that while non-zero, they are both very low probability.
What is notable and interesting (to me) is that while RL is obviously made up of a very, very small number of owners versus the number of the 911s that Porsche produces (all past models up to present), I've not seen one person post anywhere on RL that they've had a problem with their engine post-tune. Has anyone else seen that? If so, please send the link. The absence of someone posting about post-tune engine issues doesn't mean there aren't any, but not even one anecdote on the most popular place it would likely be discussed about a friend, or even a friend of a friend having an issue?...hmmm
This is purely anecdotal, but most OTS "tunes" I've encountered are fairly tame, as long as you keep it in the "Stage 1/Stage 2" realm. Think about it...selling a tune requires maintaining a level of trust and image with the community. Most of these sales are likely on forums like this and word of mouth - as quickly as a brand can gain traction (pun intended) and popularity, it can be ruined just as fast if even 1 or 2 cars run into issues. The maps they create are going out into the wild, and have to accommodate a wide range of factors - everything from octane level, to modifications (or lack thereof), or even environmental factors...hell, different engines will respond in their own way. Unless you are getting a custom dyno/road tune, the potential can't be fully realized. I'm not saying that makes them inherently safe, but they also aren't generally pushing things to the limit (barring running race fuel maps on regular fuel).
When I had my E90 335i, I ran everything from BMS JB4 (OTS), to Cobb (OTS and custom dyno tune by Cobb), to PROcede (OTS, to E85 map, to custom tune for meth/turbo upgrade). Maybe it was the solid N54 engine, or just luck of the draw...but I never had a single issue. Then again, as I mentioned before - I didn't run outside of the map ranges, e.g. no E85, then no E85 map; no meth, then no race map. To extend on that, I didn't hear about others having issues with these brands either - to your point about lack of evidence. I will say there was a company that joined the N54 game late, right before I got out, who was doing turbo upgrades with tunes and had nothing but issues in the beginning. It immediately put a damper on their reputation, although it felt like American politics sometimes - half the folks defended them, saying "well at least they are trying" and "competition is good".
In any case, this is a classic example of "your mileage may vary". It's a non-zero risk, to be sure, but then again - so is going to the track. If you're going to lose sleep over it, then it's probably not for you. But if you have an itch that can't be scratched and find happiness in modding...do your research and be smart about it.
This is purely anecdotal, but most OTS "tunes" I've encountered are fairly tame, as long as you keep it in the "Stage 1/Stage 2" realm. Think about it...selling a tune requires maintaining a level of trust and image with the community. Most of these sales are likely on forums like this and word of mouth - as quickly as a brand can gain traction (pun intended) and popularity, it can be ruined just as fast if even 1 or 2 cars run into issues. The maps they create are going out into the wild, and have to accommodate a wide range of factors - everything from octane level, to modifications (or lack thereof), or even environmental factors...hell, different engines will respond in their own way. Unless you are getting a custom dyno/road tune, the potential can't be fully realized. I'm not saying that makes them inherently safe, but they also aren't generally pushing things to the limit (barring running race fuel maps on regular fuel).
When I had my E90 335i, I ran everything from BMS JB4 (OTS), to Cobb (OTS and custom dyno tune by Cobb), to PROcede (OTS, to E85 map, to custom tune for meth/turbo upgrade). Maybe it was the solid N54 engine, or just luck of the draw...but I never had a single issue. Then again, as I mentioned before - I didn't run outside of the map ranges, e.g. no E85, then no E85 map; no meth, then no race map. To extend on that, I didn't hear about others having issues with these brands either - to your point about lack of evidence. I will say there was a company that joined the N54 game late, right before I got out, who was doing turbo upgrades with tunes and had nothing but issues in the beginning. It immediately put a damper on their reputation, although it felt like American politics sometimes - half the folks defended them, saying "well at least they are trying" and "competition is good".
In any case, this is a classic example of "your mileage may vary". It's a non-zero risk, to be sure, but then again - so is going to the track. If you're going to lose sleep over it, then it's probably not for you. But if you have an itch that can't be scratched and find happiness in modding...do your research and be smart about it.
When I think of engine issues, I think of 2 things: immediate ones shortly after getting the car from some engine defect not caught at the factory or assembly or shortening the lifespan of the car by 50-80K miles.
I’d guess that it’s relatively safe to say if your car hit 5K miles without issue, chances are there were no immediate ones. Again, all of this is speculation only.
This base Carrera is far more than I anticipated or remember from my test drive months ago, and certainly makes my 991.2 feel like riding a wheelchair. Maybe I’ll change my mind in 6-12 months, but for now it is staying as a basic beotch 😂😂
^^^ All good points, people. I'm also in the camp of waiting a few months / a few thousand miles to make sure I didn't get the bad egg from Germany, and then I'll see if the itch is still there.
As for car lifespan, I only put ~10k miles/yr and I'm out of the old, into a new between 3-4 years systematically so I'm not likely to experience the potential downside long-term effects of whatever tune I choose to do. I see OG's driving old Porsches, and I respect their dedication to history, but my wandering eye always leads me to the latest and greatest, and that's especially true with cars.
As for handicapping the risk of doing a tune, of course N is too small if we simply use RL as the set. What I suggested is IF you could find out both the number of cars that have regular way engine issues within the warranty period AND you find out the number of cars that are tuned and have engine issues, only then could you begin to 'properly' assess the risk. My hypothesis is that it's a really really small likelihood something will go wrong with your new car, as well as from putting a tune on your new car, but there's no way to get at that data to properly quantify it.
As ryanlsmith pointed out most of these tunes, while decent-sized performance improvements, are not meant to extend anywhere near or beyond the redline and therefore are not pushing past what I'm sure are purposely reduced far higher engineered limits on the machinery.
This has been fun but I'm now satisfied that the dead horse has been sufficiently beaten on this topic. For the next few thousand miles I'm going to drive hard and continue to research the various tunes. Software is a heck of a lot easier to upgrade (and downgrade) than hardware so if the urge remains I'll likely be in search of a user-friendly ECU tune sometime in the spring that will allow me to easily upgrade and also reverse completely if I don't like what it's done, while in the comfort of my own garage.
Obviously, our engineers can elaborate far more than I, but I can expand enough to get the basic point across. The 992 ECU requires us to update the software in what we refer to as a bench flash due to tuning protection from the factory. A bench flash requires our engineers to connect to the ECU’s pins (shown below) with a wiring harness (it is not necessary to open the ECU which can void the warranty on the unit). That wiring harness is connected to a computer running our bench flash software. Our bench flash software allows us to communicate with the central processing unit (CPU) via the Controller Area Network (CAN bus) and allows us to fully write the FVD software onto the CPU.
Thank you for the kind words.
None taken. I just wanted to know how we could assist you with your trust concerns. Basically, all of the ECU’s since the 991.1 generation (2012+) required a boot or bench flash initially. Then you can set up a protocol to be able to flash the cars via the OBD port, but that takes time. In fact, you can see our past progress with our software for the water cooled models via this link… You will see the 992 must be bench flashed (ECU Pictured) and you can see that the 991.2 generation, etc. can be OBD flashed (OBD flash tool).
Currently, if you are interested in a true flash, not a piggy back unit, you are in the same boat (to my knowledge) and the ECU must be bench flashed. We have taken the steps to bench flash the 992 ECU (safer alternative than a piggy back) as early as possible and are working on our OBD tool flash which should be ready in the first or second quarter of next year. Once our OBD flash is available, we can provide you with a flash tool so that you can flash the car back to stock file prior to taking it to the dealer (like past FVD OBD flashes).
You are most welcome and thank you.
Rhonda, Can you kindly update us on obd progress by the engineers? Interested in a tune as a return (happy) customer. 😊
Rhonda, Can you kindly update us on obd progress by the engineers? Interested in a tune as a return (happy) customer. 😊
I just checked in with the engineers in Germany. They tell me that they are still working on it and unfortunately cannot give us a lead time currently. I will certainly keep everyone posted though once the software delivery tool side is ready.
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I'd wait until Carbahn releases a Porsche tune. Steve Dinan does next level work.
Dinan does a ton of BMW and Audi but not much Porsche. If I wanted to spend $2,500 I’d go M engineering. I’ll likely get a Race Chip piggyback in the spring for $750.
12-28-2020 | 08:48 PM
