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Sport Auto says skip the RAS and PDCC

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Old 01-21-2020, 03:00 AM
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OFlow
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Default Sport Auto says skip the RAS and PDCC

Maybe this post will help people specing their 992s. The toughest decision I had to make was whether to get RAS and PDCC because there were so many strong opinions on either side and no hard data directly comparing cars with and without. All the early tests involved cars fitted with RAS and PDCC. Now the German magazine Sport Auto (Feb issue) has tested the C2 without RAS and PDCC and their conclusions are clear -- the car is more fun and more pure without these. Without RAS and PDCC the car "reduces Porsche-Feeling to its essence. Glorious!" And "In the absence of high-tech intervention, [the C2] gives us the best driving feel we have had in 992 to date."

There are some numbers to back this up in comparison to the C2S they tested originally with RAS and PDCC. Both cars have the same 20/21 wheels and Pirelli tires. It is unclear whether the C2 has the sport suspension or not. On their slalom test the C2 is 74.1km/h vs 73.2 for the C2S -- this is a significant difference and suggest better handling since power and braking are not very relevant here. The non-S, of course, is slower around the Hochenheimrig GP circuit (1.576 min vs 1.533 min) but is has a big power deficit.

This report suggests that the C2S without RAS and PDCC would be faster still. I hope someone tests this! As Sport Auto says: "Simpler technology, deeper feeling."

PS: they refer to the C2S with RAS and PDCC as the "Panamicro". Ouch.

Last edited by OFlow; 01-21-2020 at 02:17 PM.
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01-25-2020, 04:28 AM
Petevb
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I've gone back and forth on the issue of RWS myself over the years. Currently for the type of driving experience I really enjoy I'd say I'm mildly against, but it really depends on both the car and the mission.

I'm surprised to see Sport Auto's test suggesting without RWS could be slightly faster. I'm sure Porsche's internal numbers say otherwise, at least in most situations.

At higher speeds where spirited driving occurs RWS is designed mainly to save time in transitions by limiting the "slip angle" the car adopts. Tires 101: no tire generating G force is moving exactly with the road. Instead it's "slipping" slightly, often imperceptibly, so that it's either rotating at a different speed or in a different direction than the road it's rolling on. That's "slip angle", and in a car corning hard it can be in the range of a few degrees with modern low profile tires...



What does this mean? For the front if the tire's got a large slip-angle in a corner we call it understeer: we're turning the wheel but the car's not fully listening. In the rear we might call slip angle oversteer, though only if the rear's slipping more than the front (forcing us to unwind the wheel to prevent swapping ends). Just because the rear's not oversteering, however, doesn't mean the rear isn't slipping by some amount, in fact at speed it needs to slip for the car to turn.

How does a rear tire "slip" (ie point in a different direction than the road) if it's attached to the car? Simple: slip the entire car. And that's what you're doing when you go around a corner quickly even if you're unaware- the entire car has adopted a slight angle relative to the road. Picture a dirt-track oval racer being far less enthusiastic:


This is all well and good... at least until you need to change direction and go the other way. At that point the car's slip angle needs to switch from perhaps 4 degrees in on one direction to the identical amount in the other. And as you might expect with moving any 1.7 ton object this takes both time and care.

There is however a way to short-circuit this process of changing direction. Don't point the car in a different direction, point just the rear wheels. Pointing wheels takes virtually no time at all and accomplishes the same thing because the tires get the slip angle they need to achieve grip. Thus it's typically a good thing, enough so that Porsche has been doing it since the '60s when it first introduced the 911: they have carefully engineered a "toe-curve" into their cars so that as it rolls into a corner the rears steer inwards. In the late 80s they added the "Weissach axle" to the 964 to augment this with extra passive steering as the car leaned into the corner. Finally recently they introduced full active (powered) rear wheel steering on top of the other systems to point the wheels that much further towards the apex. Keep in mind that all of this wheel pointing only serve to reduce the drift angle the chassis itself adopts: less dirt track racer, more roller coaster on rails.

Therein lies the rub. If you've never raced on dirt I can highly recommend: it's a lot of fun. It's much like managing the very high slip-angles generated by early cars with skinny tires. The enjoyment comes not simply from the slip-angle itself but the process of controlling it: managing under-steer on turn-in then counter-steering to catch the rear on the knife's edge before the back comes around. Getting that rear drift angle just right becomes both instinctive and addicting; from 60s 911 through my 991 GT3 it's one of the things I like most about 911s. It's also exactly what rear wheel steering gives you less of. Even worse it interferes with those slip receptors deep in the seat of your pants that are listening to understand what the car's doing. If you're used to rear wheel drive cars and especially 911s they are expecting the rear to slip in quick corners. And they can get awfully confused/ disappointed when it doesn't.

I get why people like rear wheel steering. I'm certain it's faster, especially in the wet. In fact autocrossing my 991.2 GT3 with RWS I can tell you all the places my car outperforms my buddy's 997.2 GT3 RS. There's also no question it's easier... But take away the clock and there's also no question which I find more challenging, fun and rewarding: it's not the car with RWS. Would I feel comfortable pushing to the point where I could make the same easy distinction on public roads? Generally not in those cars- they are both awfully fast for that. Thus if I wasn't planning for the car to make its living near the limit the extra performance and margin of the RWS would certainly appeal- I'd certainly spec something like the Turbo in a street car role with RWS (if it wasn't standard). For a "fun" car, however, my gut tendency would be to spec without. That said wheelbase, tire type, tuning of each setup, etc make a big difference to this conclusion so I'd like to test the 992 specifically. And I haven't.
Old 01-21-2020, 09:16 AM
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rk-d
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I struggle with this one. The car I drove didn't have RAS and it drove great.

But then the praise here for RAS is effusive and Porsche spec'ed all the press cars with it as well as making it standard on the GT3

Some say without it, the car retains an old-school feel, but the 992 is essentially mid-engine at this point....

The money is not insignificant, but taking that out of the equation -- I'm not sure anyone felt that RAS made the car worse.

There is no black and white answer. It's subjective and ownership bias colors some of the reviews, so who knows.
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:50 AM
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OFlow
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I agree that this is a personal decision and there is no "wrong" or "right" answer. What I find frustrating is that all the magazines only tested the one spec provided by Porsche, which doesn't help us shoppers with our choice. Of course Porsche wants us all to buy the loaded car. I also find it frustrating that magazines typically rave about a car initially and only later do you find out that they were actually questioning things. I guess that this sells magazines.

I drove several 991.2 versions with and without RAS and PDCC before making my 992 decision based on "seat of the pants" feel. What I like about this Sport Auto report is that it is the first report I've seen that begins to allow a comparison in terms of objective measures like slalom and lap time. I'd like to see more of this sort of objective and critical comparison from the press.

Old 01-21-2020, 10:08 AM
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rk-d
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Originally Posted by OFlow
I agree that this is a personal decision and there is no "wrong" or "right" answer. What I find frustrating is that all the magazines only tested the one spec provided by Porsche, which doesn't help us shoppers with our choice. Of course Porsche wants us all to buy the loaded car. I also find it frustrating that magazines typically rave about a car initially and only later do you find out that they were actually questioning things. I guess that this sells magazines.

I drove several 991.2 versions with and without RAS and PDCC before making my 992 decision based on "seat of the pants" feel. What I like about this Sport Auto report is that it is the first report I've seen that begins to allow a comparison in terms of objective measures like slalom and lap time. I'd like to see more of this sort of objective and critical comparison from the press.

What did you decide on RAS? I have it on my build for now - as much for the theoretical advantage with parking, since this will be my DD.
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Old 01-21-2020, 10:29 AM
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Sorry, I should have mentioned that I decided against RAS and PDCC based on my test drives of the 991.2. I was biting my nails though given all the glowing press at launch. Now that I have it, I never think about it. I love it the way it is. I suspect that I would feel the same if I made the other choice. You get used to a car and how it behaves and then it just feels right. Note that I haven't been to the track yet (first there was the break-in period and now snow tires) -- that may be the one place where the RAS really makes a difference because that is the only place where you are cornering at high speed.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:36 AM
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992Sam
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I am so glad I didn't skip either of them... especially the RAS... never mind the better handling at speed... U-turns and parallel parking in SF are a breeze!
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:44 AM
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RAS is pretty nice for parking. And there's a reason it's on all GT cars. But the C2 is a sweet car as it is.
Old 01-21-2020, 12:18 PM
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GrantG
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Originally Posted by rk-d
the 992 is essentially mid-engine at this point....
No, it is not. And it's all the better for being rear engined.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:27 PM
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casaforte9
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isn't power steering plus beneficial at low parking speeds ?

I tried RAS in 991 S with sport package and a 991 S without RAS and i could not detect a difference . I am not sure RAS is very obvious for me as opposed to C4S VS C2S at my talent level
Old 01-21-2020, 12:29 PM
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rk-d
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Originally Posted by GrantG
No, it is not. And it's all the better for being rear engined.
Compared to an air cooled traditional 911, it is. Engine sits more on top of the rear axle than behind it.

Engine mounts moved forward quite a bit compared to 991, but I don't think engine placement has changed significantly comparatively.
Old 01-21-2020, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by casaforte9
isn't power steering plus beneficial at low parking speeds ?
It's only "beneficial" to the extent that it reduces the amount of effort required to turn the steering wheel. It does not affect the radius of the turning circle (like RAS does). IMO, I would never buy any option on a 911 that is designed to only aid in parking. RAS has other intended benefits. While my GT3 has RAS, I can't tell if I like it or not, as there is no version without RAS to compare.

I know there are a few 991 GT3/RS owners who have disabled the system and replaced the rear toe links with solid links. But, I've never had the chance to drive one of those cars...
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:50 PM
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rk-d
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Originally Posted by casaforte9
isn't power steering plus beneficial at low parking speeds ?

I tried RAS in 991 S with sport package and a 991 S without RAS and i could not detect a difference . I am not sure RAS is very obvious for me as opposed to C4S VS C2S at my talent level
The reports on the benefits of RAS are so dramatically different - some say it's only beneficial in track situations. Others say it's a game-changer. I had RAS in my 991.2 Turbo, but of course I had nothing to compare it to (plus it's AWD and a completely different feeling car to the 992 C2s). Not sure I'd be pushing enough on the street to pick up these differences, regardless.

I wish I had the ability to check this back to back, but my dealer only has Non-RAS equipped cars to test.
Old 01-21-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rk-d
Compared to an air cooled traditional 911, it is. Engine sits more on top of the rear axle than behind it.

Engine mounts moved forward quite a bit compared to 991, but I don't think engine placement has changed significantly comparatively.
Please provide some documentation (preferably illustration) to support your claim. The change to the engine and gearbox mounts do not mean the drivetrain itself has moved forward. It's my understand that the 992 is still very much a rear-engine car. My 991 does not feel at all like a mid-engine car to me. But even that is irrelevant - it either is or it is not rear-engined. Very easily proven one way or another with a proper illustration.

Found this cutaway, but it is not the best view (though doesn't convince me at all that the engine is "over the rear axle"):



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Old 01-21-2020, 01:00 PM
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My car has RAS, PCDD and PAMS and handles like it is on rails! I did drive several other 911's for comparison (no other 992's) and gravitated to the 992 with all the "goodies". May not ever drive the car to it's abilities but nice to have it!
Old 01-21-2020, 01:05 PM
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This illustration shows the gearbox ends at the rear axle line and no part of the engine is on nor fore of that line:


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