MSRP discount 992
12-15-2019, 12:34 AM
#167
I wouldn't rule out the car, but I would request an over-rev report even if it's a PDK. Find out the number of miles on the odometer and ask if the car has been "punched". If the answer is yes, ask how much of the warranty remains. If you decide to buy the car and it's punched, be certain to get the remaining warranty in writing from the dealer.
12-15-2019, 12:38 AM
#168
About ten years ago one of my sons worked summers at a local Porsche dealer. The practice at this dealership was to flip the keys to the prospective buyer and say "have fun." To many customers that invitation meant taking the car to or near red line on a cold engine which had fewer than 50 miles on the odometer. I know that there are some who believe Porsche's break-in recommendations are overly restrictive, but I know of no one who advocates taking a cold engine to or near red line. My son told me that most 911 demos at that dealership had range 1 over-revs. So personally I'd never buy a Porsche demo. A Lexus demo, maybe; but Porsche, no.
1) Demo 992’s will have some mileage and a few months of warranty used. Car hasn’t been out long enough to make a dramatic effect on the pricing (to what your initial thoughts were).
2) No manual transmissions right now, don’t concern yourself with over-revs.
3) While we do our best, many buyers aren’t aware of cold engines/how cars should be broken in. I’d say a majority of clients who walk in the showroom. Doesn’t matter what car, 911 or not. So many clients, without asking, just take the first on-ramp to near/at redline for at least 2nd into 3rd gear before backing off. The car is fine. You have 3+ years of warranty remaining, not sure if this is going to be owned past that or not, but I would really not be concerned with “wear.” Actual damage to the car, sure. But mechanically I think you’ll be okay.
4) See what your SA shoots you over first before making any counter offers. I’d maybe guess he’d say 5-7% depending on the mileage on the car/warranty remaining. 992 is still pretty new. See what he says though!
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NachoRunner601 (12-15-2019)
12-15-2019, 12:52 AM
#169
Modern day Porsche employee here:
1) Demo 992’s will have some mileage and a few months of warranty used. Car hasn’t been out long enough to make a dramatic effect on the pricing (to what your initial thoughts were).
2) No manual transmissions right now, don’t concern yourself with over-revs.
3) While we do our best, many buyers aren’t aware of cold engines/how cars should be broken in. I’d say a majority of clients who walk in the showroom. Doesn’t matter what car, 911 or not. So many clients, without asking, just take the first on-ramp to near/at redline for at least 2nd into 3rd gear before backing off. The car is fine. You have 3+ years of warranty remaining, not sure if this is going to be owned past that or not, but I would really not be concerned with “wear.” Actual damage to the car, sure. But mechanically I think you’ll be okay.
4) See what your SA shoots you over first before making any counter offers. I’d maybe guess he’d say 5-7% depending on the mileage on the car/warranty remaining. 992 is still pretty new. See what he says though!
1) Demo 992’s will have some mileage and a few months of warranty used. Car hasn’t been out long enough to make a dramatic effect on the pricing (to what your initial thoughts were).
2) No manual transmissions right now, don’t concern yourself with over-revs.
3) While we do our best, many buyers aren’t aware of cold engines/how cars should be broken in. I’d say a majority of clients who walk in the showroom. Doesn’t matter what car, 911 or not. So many clients, without asking, just take the first on-ramp to near/at redline for at least 2nd into 3rd gear before backing off. The car is fine. You have 3+ years of warranty remaining, not sure if this is going to be owned past that or not, but I would really not be concerned with “wear.” Actual damage to the car, sure. But mechanically I think you’ll be okay.
4) See what your SA shoots you over first before making any counter offers. I’d maybe guess he’d say 5-7% depending on the mileage on the car/warranty remaining. 992 is still pretty new. See what he says though!
12-15-2019, 11:49 AM
#170
Advanced
Modern day Porsche employee here:
1) Demo 992’s will have some mileage and a few months of warranty used. Car hasn’t been out long enough to make a dramatic effect on the pricing (to what your initial thoughts were).
2) No manual transmissions right now, don’t concern yourself with over-revs.
3) While we do our best, many buyers aren’t aware of cold engines/how cars should be broken in. I’d say a majority of clients who walk in the showroom. Doesn’t matter what car, 911 or not. So many clients, without asking, just take the first on-ramp to near/at redline for at least 2nd into 3rd gear before backing off. The car is fine. You have 3+ years of warranty remaining, not sure if this is going to be owned past that or not, but I would really not be concerned with “wear.” Actual damage to the car, sure. But mechanically I think you’ll be okay.
4) See what your SA shoots you over first before making any counter offers. I’d maybe guess he’d say 5-7% depending on the mileage on the car/warranty remaining. 992 is still pretty new. See what he says though!
1) Demo 992’s will have some mileage and a few months of warranty used. Car hasn’t been out long enough to make a dramatic effect on the pricing (to what your initial thoughts were).
2) No manual transmissions right now, don’t concern yourself with over-revs.
3) While we do our best, many buyers aren’t aware of cold engines/how cars should be broken in. I’d say a majority of clients who walk in the showroom. Doesn’t matter what car, 911 or not. So many clients, without asking, just take the first on-ramp to near/at redline for at least 2nd into 3rd gear before backing off. The car is fine. You have 3+ years of warranty remaining, not sure if this is going to be owned past that or not, but I would really not be concerned with “wear.” Actual damage to the car, sure. But mechanically I think you’ll be okay.
4) See what your SA shoots you over first before making any counter offers. I’d maybe guess he’d say 5-7% depending on the mileage on the car/warranty remaining. 992 is still pretty new. See what he says though!
Hoping for more than 5-7% ... to stay under my budget, otherwise my wife might be suggesting I sleep in the car
plus I would think, if I can order a custom build and get 4-6% then I would hope for more than just an extra 1-2% increase discount, but I do see what you’re saying - it’s still a new car *fingers crossed* It will definitely be kept longer than the warranty period - at least that’s the plan!
I will update here when I get his response.
12-17-2019, 11:18 PM
#171
I was told that dealer’s mark up is about 8% not sure if that’s accurate or not but I would say that 5-6 % would be a good discount for now.
I was offered 4% when I place my order in August. I’m hoping I can still get them down to at least a 5% discount when it comes in next week. Though I think waiting for end of the year is a good idea for max discounts
good luck
I was offered 4% when I place my order in August. I’m hoping I can still get them down to at least a 5% discount when it comes in next week. Though I think waiting for end of the year is a good idea for max discounts
good luck
For example, I traded in a 2017 718 to buy my current 911, the dealership took a week but offered me $42,000 for my car with 21,000 miles. They listed it for sale for $54,000 a week later with a CPO...I took a screenshot from my phone...I had offered to bet the sales manager $1000 that he'd list the car for $54-55k. He said 50k and they'd take 47k, and did not take the bet. He lied, and it was gone within 10 days. They marked the car up almost 30% over what they gave me, and their first offer for trade in value was $36,000. I told them thanks very much, I'll be going now. The car had a $68,500 sticker when purchased in July of 2017, and I traded it in March of 2019. I don't know what they actually sold it for, probably $51,500 cause they could "only" take 5% off. That's a 22.619% profit, not including their expenses, which were what, maybe $1000 in reconditioning and the CPO process? They tell you it costs $3k for them to certify which absolutely cannot be true.
Supply and demand exists, and 911's are worth what someone is willing to pay. I get that, and if people are willing to accept 5% discounts, then that's what the dealership is going to sell it for. But let's not pretend that dealerships are being honest about their markups or what their profit actually is. Obviously they're a business and they need to make money, but the margins on these cars are gigantic, and dealerships pretending otherwise are lying.
12-18-2019, 12:52 AM
#172
Three Wheelin'
I think I heard somewhere that Porsche has the highest profit margin in the auto industry, but everyone at the dealership will you their margin is only 8%. And, in a miraculous coincidence, I'm averaging about 7.5% off on all of my 911 purchases. Somehow it seems like they know what they're doing.
12-18-2019, 03:42 AM
#173
There is absolutely zero chance that dealer markup on a 911 is 8%. Less than zero chance. I was offered a 718 Cayman GTS last year at 18% off. My parents leased a 2019 Cayenne at 9% off. The 718 models have struggled to sell, especially at higher prices, as we all know, but Porsche does not lose money on cars, and I absolutely guarantee that the markups on a 911 are as high if not higher than any of their other models. I'd imagine their margins are 20-30% on these cars.
For example, I traded in a 2017 718 to buy my current 911, the dealership took a week but offered me $42,000 for my car with 21,000 miles. They listed it for sale for $54,000 a week later with a CPO...I took a screenshot from my phone...I had offered to bet the sales manager $1000 that he'd list the car for $54-55k. He said 50k and they'd take 47k, and did not take the bet. He lied, and it was gone within 10 days. They marked the car up almost 30% over what they gave me, and their first offer for trade in value was $36,000. I told them thanks very much, I'll be going now. The car had a $68,500 sticker when purchased in July of 2017, and I traded it in March of 2019. I don't know what they actually sold it for, probably $51,500 cause they could "only" take 5% off. That's a 22.619% profit, not including their expenses, which were what, maybe $1000 in reconditioning and the CPO process? They tell you it costs $3k for them to certify which absolutely cannot be true.
Supply and demand exists, and 911's are worth what someone is willing to pay. I get that, and if people are willing to accept 5% discounts, then that's what the dealership is going to sell it for. But let's not pretend that dealerships are being honest about their markups or what their profit actually is. Obviously they're a business and they need to make money, but the margins on these cars are gigantic, and dealerships pretending otherwise are lying.
For example, I traded in a 2017 718 to buy my current 911, the dealership took a week but offered me $42,000 for my car with 21,000 miles. They listed it for sale for $54,000 a week later with a CPO...I took a screenshot from my phone...I had offered to bet the sales manager $1000 that he'd list the car for $54-55k. He said 50k and they'd take 47k, and did not take the bet. He lied, and it was gone within 10 days. They marked the car up almost 30% over what they gave me, and their first offer for trade in value was $36,000. I told them thanks very much, I'll be going now. The car had a $68,500 sticker when purchased in July of 2017, and I traded it in March of 2019. I don't know what they actually sold it for, probably $51,500 cause they could "only" take 5% off. That's a 22.619% profit, not including their expenses, which were what, maybe $1000 in reconditioning and the CPO process? They tell you it costs $3k for them to certify which absolutely cannot be true.
Supply and demand exists, and 911's are worth what someone is willing to pay. I get that, and if people are willing to accept 5% discounts, then that's what the dealership is going to sell it for. But let's not pretend that dealerships are being honest about their markups or what their profit actually is. Obviously they're a business and they need to make money, but the margins on these cars are gigantic, and dealerships pretending otherwise are lying.
Your example with your used car really doesn’t do much for this argument, as it’s a Used car market without fixed margins like new cars have, but I’ll tap into that for you too.
While a select few times of the year/members of the public do get their 10-12-14% off of a new car, this is far from the norm. On a struggling, aging-on-lot car like a 718, I have easily seen 15%-17% off of the MSRP which is the entire kitchen sink and the house for a dealer. They just want the car gone. Good deal initially for the end buyer, sure! But long term you have to take into effect there’s a reason this deal happened and perhaps the car you just bought will be taking a hit down the road. And that they aren’t the only dealer selling the car at that heavy discount, so the market will be saturated...and thus we now see the 718 market some folks on the forum have talked about recently.
And to your point about CPO costs, yes it does in fact range from $2,300 -$2,900 for the cost of the warranty alone. If work to the car is required (services, tires, brakes, extra keys, etc), it is mandated that those get paid for before Porsche grants that warranty to the car. So often times the dealer has spent more than $2,xxx to get a car Certified, because Porsche requires the checklist to be performed and upheld. But no, $3,000 (as a round number), is not a lie or misconception.
I’m really sorry you have a sour taste in your mouth about dealerships, glad to take over your business if you want some transparency. PM anytime.
I think I heard somewhere that Porsche has the highest profit margin in the auto industry, but everyone at the dealership will you their margin is only 8%. And, in a miraculous coincidence, I'm averaging about 7.5% off on all of my 911 purchases. Somehow it seems like they know what they're doing.
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JCWLS3 (12-18-2019)
12-18-2019, 10:19 AM
#174
You sir would be incorrect on your assumptions. But, I can understand your skepticism based on your experiences. Typical MSRP to invoice is 10%. Doesn’t matter what car or what model. You name it, that’s the case. If you don’t believe it, well...I don’t live in your world. We say 8% because every store has their own process for preparing cars for the lot (Pre-Delivery Inspections and such, which do come out of their cost of the car). On average, yes, a store is dealing with 8-9% of front end (sales) profit. If they go beyond that, they’re tapping into what’s called holdback, which is a percentage below invoice. It’s not 10’s of percent, but rather just a few.
Your example with your used car really doesn’t do much for this argument, as it’s a Used car market without fixed margins like new cars have, but I’ll tap into that for you too.
While a select few times of the year/members of the public do get their 10-12-14% off of a new car, this is far from the norm. On a struggling, aging-on-lot car like a 718, I have easily seen 15%-17% off of the MSRP which is the entire kitchen sink and the house for a dealer. They just want the car gone. Good deal initially for the end buyer, sure! But long term you have to take into effect there’s a reason this deal happened and perhaps the car you just bought will be taking a hit down the road. And that they aren’t the only dealer selling the car at that heavy discount, so the market will be saturated...and thus we now see the 718 market some folks on the forum have talked about recently.
And to your point about CPO costs, yes it does in fact range from $2,300 -$2,900 for the cost of the warranty alone. If work to the car is required (services, tires, brakes, extra keys, etc), it is mandated that those get paid for before Porsche grants that warranty to the car. So often times the dealer has spent more than $2,xxx to get a car Certified, because Porsche requires the checklist to be performed and upheld. But no, $3,000 (as a round number), is not a lie or misconception.
I’m really sorry you have a sour taste in your mouth about dealerships, glad to take over your business if you want some transparency. PM anytime.
Porsche AG does, yes. When they sell their cars to PCNA and the likes of their distributors and factor that into the entire sale of the car. Not necessarily the case with cars on dealer lots Stateside/wherever you may live. We certainly make good money on the product, but it is a good product to begin with so that makes sense. Congrats on your solid discounts, you should be very happy and thankful for that relationship.
Your example with your used car really doesn’t do much for this argument, as it’s a Used car market without fixed margins like new cars have, but I’ll tap into that for you too.
While a select few times of the year/members of the public do get their 10-12-14% off of a new car, this is far from the norm. On a struggling, aging-on-lot car like a 718, I have easily seen 15%-17% off of the MSRP which is the entire kitchen sink and the house for a dealer. They just want the car gone. Good deal initially for the end buyer, sure! But long term you have to take into effect there’s a reason this deal happened and perhaps the car you just bought will be taking a hit down the road. And that they aren’t the only dealer selling the car at that heavy discount, so the market will be saturated...and thus we now see the 718 market some folks on the forum have talked about recently.
And to your point about CPO costs, yes it does in fact range from $2,300 -$2,900 for the cost of the warranty alone. If work to the car is required (services, tires, brakes, extra keys, etc), it is mandated that those get paid for before Porsche grants that warranty to the car. So often times the dealer has spent more than $2,xxx to get a car Certified, because Porsche requires the checklist to be performed and upheld. But no, $3,000 (as a round number), is not a lie or misconception.
I’m really sorry you have a sour taste in your mouth about dealerships, glad to take over your business if you want some transparency. PM anytime.
Porsche AG does, yes. When they sell their cars to PCNA and the likes of their distributors and factor that into the entire sale of the car. Not necessarily the case with cars on dealer lots Stateside/wherever you may live. We certainly make good money on the product, but it is a good product to begin with so that makes sense. Congrats on your solid discounts, you should be very happy and thankful for that relationship.
Well said and that's exactly correct. Porsche GmBH Germany is the most profitable car company per unit when they sell cars to their North American subsidiary (PCNA). That does not mean each dealer is the most profitable on a per unit basis.
There is 10% from what a dealer pays PCNA for a car to the MSRP price on the sticker, thats it, never a dime more or less. Dealers also get "hold back" and that's a number between 0 and 5% depending on the dealer and how they rank in PCNA and a number of other factors. Never a dime more than 5%.
Used cars have any margin any dealer can earn its not a regulated market.
Dealers also incur expenses on every new car. They all do a PDI to set up the car once it comes from the port, they all detail the cars and fill them with gas, they also pay a salesman.
On a Macan that has a sticker price of say $58k.... There is roughly $5800 of mark up. A PDI typically costs $600 to $700. If they discount the car 7% and pay their sales person how much are they making on that Macan? That's the issue facing Porsche dealers these days. The majority of the cars they sell are not $100k plus 911's, they're Macans and Cayenne's where the margins in real dollar terms are pretty slim.
This is all public info, all you have to do is spend a little time on the internet to figure it out.
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12-18-2019, 10:42 AM
#175
There is absolutely zero chance that dealer markup on a 911 is 8%. Less than zero chance. I was offered a 718 Cayman GTS last year at 18% off. My parents leased a 2019 Cayenne at 9% off. The 718 models have struggled to sell, especially at higher prices, as we all know, but Porsche does not lose money on cars, and I absolutely guarantee that the markups on a 911 are as high if not higher than any of their other models. I'd imagine their margins are 20-30% on these cars.
For example, I traded in a 2017 718 to buy my current 911, the dealership took a week but offered me $42,000 for my car with 21,000 miles. They listed it for sale for $54,000 a week later with a CPO...I took a screenshot from my phone...I had offered to bet the sales manager $1000 that he'd list the car for $54-55k. He said 50k and they'd take 47k, and did not take the bet. He lied, and it was gone within 10 days. They marked the car up almost 30% over what they gave me, and their first offer for trade in value was $36,000. I told them thanks very much, I'll be going now. The car had a $68,500 sticker when purchased in July of 2017, and I traded it in March of 2019. I don't know what they actually sold it for, probably $51,500 cause they could "only" take 5% off. That's a 22.619% profit, not including their expenses, which were what, maybe $1000 in reconditioning and the CPO process? They tell you it costs $3k for them to certify which absolutely cannot be true.
Supply and demand exists, and 911's are worth what someone is willing to pay. I get that, and if people are willing to accept 5% discounts, then that's what the dealership is going to sell it for. But let's not pretend that dealerships are being honest about their markups or what their profit actually is. Obviously they're a business and they need to make money, but the margins on these cars are gigantic, and dealerships pretending otherwise are lying.
For example, I traded in a 2017 718 to buy my current 911, the dealership took a week but offered me $42,000 for my car with 21,000 miles. They listed it for sale for $54,000 a week later with a CPO...I took a screenshot from my phone...I had offered to bet the sales manager $1000 that he'd list the car for $54-55k. He said 50k and they'd take 47k, and did not take the bet. He lied, and it was gone within 10 days. They marked the car up almost 30% over what they gave me, and their first offer for trade in value was $36,000. I told them thanks very much, I'll be going now. The car had a $68,500 sticker when purchased in July of 2017, and I traded it in March of 2019. I don't know what they actually sold it for, probably $51,500 cause they could "only" take 5% off. That's a 22.619% profit, not including their expenses, which were what, maybe $1000 in reconditioning and the CPO process? They tell you it costs $3k for them to certify which absolutely cannot be true.
Supply and demand exists, and 911's are worth what someone is willing to pay. I get that, and if people are willing to accept 5% discounts, then that's what the dealership is going to sell it for. But let's not pretend that dealerships are being honest about their markups or what their profit actually is. Obviously they're a business and they need to make money, but the margins on these cars are gigantic, and dealerships pretending otherwise are lying.
The CPO warranty from Porsche costs the dealer about $2900 bucks. Each car has to go through a CPO check out which costs about $450 give or take $50 bucks. In all my years as a Porsche manager I never once sent a car for a CPO check out that didn't need something. Tires and brakes have to meet spec, same with the service being up to the exact Porsche recommended schedule based on time and miles. If you have to do tires and brakes because they're is still nearly 50% life left in them but that falls below the CPO standard you can plan on several grand. Need a 20k service? that's more expense. Missing a key, tack on more.
If you didn't like the trade in price, then why trade the car in? Why do you care how much a dealer makes on used cars? No one forces you to trade a car in, no one forces you to buy a used car from them. Where are you when they take a loss on used cars? When you walk into another retail business do you get to be the arbiter of their margins?
A dealer has 10 minutes or so to put a number on a trade in car, sometimes there is hidden stuff the person trade in doesn't reveal and the dealer gets stuck. How about when a client begs you to put a number on their trade and when they show up the car is no where near as described. The the client screams bloody murder and calls you a liar, even though they didn't mention the 4 different brands of tires, the chipped windshield and all the paint work the car has had. Or how about the guy who brings in his trade and gets a value, works out a deal on the new car and then when he returns two days later to pick up his new car, he parks his trade far away from the showroom because he swapped out the factory wheels and tires for some garbage ones, then denies that after he leaves with the new car and you go grab the trade in from the back where he hid it?
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PorscheMeister42 (12-18-2019)
12-18-2019, 11:15 AM
#176
Rennlist Member
Buying and selling cars is a full contact sport not for the feint of heart. With Google and forums like this available to all, pricing information has never been more accessible. Do your research on your new car and/or your trade, settle in advance on a number that makes you comfortable, and once you agree to a deal, don't read threads like this one. It will make for a more enjoyable experience for all. Buyers want to spend as little as possible, $tealers want to make as much as possible ... nothing wrong with any of that. Sometime you get a stupid good deal, and other times you might be on the losing of a great deal. That's life. Educate yourself, be prepared to walk away, make a deal, and at the end of your day, enjoy your car. That's what I plan to do.
12-18-2019, 11:18 AM
#177
Rennlist Member
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I actually enjoy it! I did it last year when I ordered my Porsche and I am doing it now when trying to order a G Wagon, which are the opposite of Porsche since the low starting price is MSRP!
12-18-2019, 11:29 AM
#178
Buying and selling cars is a full contact sport not for the feint of heart. With Google and forums like this available to all, pricing information has never been more accessible. Do your research on your new car and/or your trade, settle in advance on a number that makes you comfortable, and once you agree to a deal, don't read threads like this one. It will make for a more enjoyable experience for all. Buyers want to spend as little as possible, $tealers want to make as much as possible ... nothing wrong with any of that. Sometime you get a stupid good deal, and other times you might be on the losing of a great deal. That's life. Educate yourself, be prepared to walk away, make a deal, and at the end of your day, enjoy your car. That's what I plan to do.
Why are they a "stealer"
Buying a car does not have to be full contact. Pricing is pretty transparent with a little homework. Go in understanding what you want to pay and it can be a pleasant experience. The experience will be exactly what you make it. If you're a bull in a china shop then that's how you'll get treated. I always used to get a kick out of the people who wanted to fight over $200 bucks on a $130k car.
We had a stripper Macan as our "lease special" it stickered for $50,750 iirc. The lease price worked out really cheaply. We had a client call from several hundred miles away and demand we beat the price of his local dealers lease special. Our car had one option their car didn't and the client said he likes out color better and didnt care about that extra option, therefore he refused to pay for that option. He demanded we lower the lease price 7 bucks a month. I just laughed to myself and told my salesman to politely say thanks but we wont be able to do business. 7 bucks a month on a 39 month contract is $273 bucks which was a little less than the profit margin on that deal. Thanks but I am sure the car will sell, there is a reason why you're calling from several hundred miles away.
Educate yourself, head to the dealer and sit down to have a conversation. If you don't like the price, that's okay, it doesn't mean either party needs to get nasty.
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12-18-2019, 11:32 AM
#179
The big difference between Mercedes and Porsche is Mercedes always plays games with incentives to the dealer, Porsche almost never does and absolutely never does on a 911. You can get crazy percentages off msrp on many Mercedes because there is massive money behind the line from Mercedes on different models at different times. On the G wagon, not so much if at all because they're selling all they build pretty quickly.
12-18-2019, 03:18 PM
#180
So even if a car is loaded to the hilt with silly options whose stand-alone margin approaches 100%, like body-colored key or interior-colored key pouch and the such, all the gravy stays with Porsche corporate, and none extra goes to the dealer? Same margin % as a stripper?
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992Sam (12-18-2019)