Project "Baby 911R"
#46
Banned
An experiment in putting just about the best performing transmission ever put in a road car, that critics and owners alike raved about, and which is still likely to be selected overwhelmingly by buyers of the .2 GT3 - that failed attempt? Please, spare us the MT nonsense in this thread.
#47
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Where aspirations are natural
Posts: 4,389
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These threads are a little hard for me to understand... I just couldn't imagine a better experience than my C2S 991.1 Cab. the suspension is a great mix of cruising and canyon carving and the engine has the perfect crescendo and power for me. The high power does get old and the 0-60 times are fun for awhile but although I always drooled over certain "perfect" looking celebrities.... my wife is beautiful in a certain way and has the personality that is the perfect mix for me. A GT3 or better is fun for <5% of the time and most will never use the power of a 991.1 base anyway.
#48
We're talking about what makes the R great here. Not the next step in virtual technology that removes the driver. There are drivers cars and then automated vacuum cleaners like the Robo. Porsche is treading on thin water with the true driver. Even the R which us suppose to be a drivers car is full of useless torque vectoring and rear wheel steering. This alone is a joke for the true enthusiasts. Some a$$ in engineering decide to keep this worthless junk. someone should fire that no good... where's Trump..
#49
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
To OP: I like your plan...until I saw the "rear seat delete." Then you mind as well get a GT3.
I'm in a similar situation with a '14 911 50th (basically a GTS with different paint). Actually put my name down for a 991.2 GT3 but now I'm leaning to keep the 50th. I want the back seats for my kids to ride along, and I want the manual. Not looking for an all-out track day car. Any 991 is more than enough car for the street.
I would recommend DSC, better tires, elephant racing ball joints, and TPC sway bars. Also coilover conversion, but that would push the car more track than street. This would bring you pretty close to GT3, minus the engine, of course
I'm in a similar situation with a '14 911 50th (basically a GTS with different paint). Actually put my name down for a 991.2 GT3 but now I'm leaning to keep the 50th. I want the back seats for my kids to ride along, and I want the manual. Not looking for an all-out track day car. Any 991 is more than enough car for the street.
I would recommend DSC, better tires, elephant racing ball joints, and TPC sway bars. Also coilover conversion, but that would push the car more track than street. This would bring you pretty close to GT3, minus the engine, of course
#50
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
IMO, modding older Porsches can make lots of sense; big mods to nearly-current-gen cars is a romantic pasttime best entered into with eyes wide open -- which it sounds like our friend Titleistadict is doing. Hey, if it keeps him off the golf course it can't be a bad idea.
GT3 Sans wing:https://www.autogespot.com/porsche-991-gt3-2/2014/08/04
#51
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Mods Revised
Thanks to everyone for your comments either for or against this project. I value everyone's opinion and certainly don't want to be $30k into something before realizing it's not going to be ultimate what I was going after. Just to be clear my rationale for this project is as follows:
I noticed a small but significant difference in driving dynamic with my car as is with a full tank of gas and a nearly empty tank. Empty, it feels livelier, with improved handling up front and more dynamic and playful. But it just gets into this territory and I'd like it to be even a little more in this area. 1 gallon of gas weight 6.1 lbs so 12 gallons difference is about 72 lbs. My theory is that if I can eliminate 72 lbs or thereabouts from the car as well as add a little power then the car should be about where I think it would be a perfect compromise for a daily driver. So here's my new revised mod list as it stands with some approximate numbers associated with it.
Phase 1: Weight reduction
DSC Sport v2 controller (done)
GT4 short shifter (done)
Akrapovic Ti exhaust (-19 lbs sprung weight, 18 hp/25 lb/ft)
Forgeline GA1R open lug wheel, 20x8.5, 20x11 (-20 lbs unsprung weight)
Michelin Cup 2 tires in stock sizing all around (improved handling)
Voltphreaks VP-750 Li-On battery (-39 lbs sprung weight)
Rear seat delete (-20 lbs sprung weight)
Street/race alignment with increased negative camber up front and toe adjustments front/rear (improved handling)
KW HAS (improved weight balance)
Total weight savings: 98 lbs. +18 hp, +25 lb/ft
Total cost: Hard to say since some is new, some will hopefully be used but let's say $16-18k depending.
Phase 2: Power mods
Cobb Accessport with Pro-tune (+19 hp, +16 lb/ft)
IPD Plenum (plan to skip)
BMC Air filters (+/-)
Fabspeed sport headers (plan to skip)
PCCB (plan to skip)
Lightweight flywheel and clutch (possibly when it comes time to replace clutch)
Re-gearing transmission (no idea what this takes, will need to do more research)
Total cost here about $1500 for the Cobb and Filters
So I should be at $18k if I'm lucky with the above, easily reversible and modest mods. Next post, I'll put up my thoughts re: GT3.
I noticed a small but significant difference in driving dynamic with my car as is with a full tank of gas and a nearly empty tank. Empty, it feels livelier, with improved handling up front and more dynamic and playful. But it just gets into this territory and I'd like it to be even a little more in this area. 1 gallon of gas weight 6.1 lbs so 12 gallons difference is about 72 lbs. My theory is that if I can eliminate 72 lbs or thereabouts from the car as well as add a little power then the car should be about where I think it would be a perfect compromise for a daily driver. So here's my new revised mod list as it stands with some approximate numbers associated with it.
Phase 1: Weight reduction
DSC Sport v2 controller (done)
GT4 short shifter (done)
Akrapovic Ti exhaust (-19 lbs sprung weight, 18 hp/25 lb/ft)
Forgeline GA1R open lug wheel, 20x8.5, 20x11 (-20 lbs unsprung weight)
Michelin Cup 2 tires in stock sizing all around (improved handling)
Voltphreaks VP-750 Li-On battery (-39 lbs sprung weight)
Rear seat delete (-20 lbs sprung weight)
Street/race alignment with increased negative camber up front and toe adjustments front/rear (improved handling)
KW HAS (improved weight balance)
Total weight savings: 98 lbs. +18 hp, +25 lb/ft
Total cost: Hard to say since some is new, some will hopefully be used but let's say $16-18k depending.
Phase 2: Power mods
Cobb Accessport with Pro-tune (+19 hp, +16 lb/ft)
IPD Plenum (plan to skip)
BMC Air filters (+/-)
Fabspeed sport headers (plan to skip)
PCCB (plan to skip)
Lightweight flywheel and clutch (possibly when it comes time to replace clutch)
Re-gearing transmission (no idea what this takes, will need to do more research)
Total cost here about $1500 for the Cobb and Filters
So I should be at $18k if I'm lucky with the above, easily reversible and modest mods. Next post, I'll put up my thoughts re: GT3.
#52
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
GT3 vs. C2S
Here are my thoughts re: the GT3
GT3 Pros:
Factory car, built and ready to go performance
Engine
Suspension
LWBS
Looks awesome (except wing)
GT3 Cons:
PDK-S only
Large rear wing (would require mod) - ?? $$
No rear seat (would require seat retrofit) - ?? $$
Cost ($140k for a '15 or '16 in prime condition)
To each their own. For me, the cost of the mods + car above will be approximately $110k all in with tax. For the GT3, hard to say exactly but let's say I get a $140k car + tax/reg + $3k for rear wing delete and rear seat addition = $157k. For the difference of $47k I'd easily choose to keep my C2S and consider adding a little more for say a 993 or 964 C2. Different choices for different people, but I'd be super happy with that combo vs. having 1 GT3. Now as prices of the .1 GT3 start to come down a little, perhaps it sways the proportion. And not to further confuse things but no one has mentioned a 997.2 GT3 which does come in Manual and is more in the $110-120k range.
GT3 Pros:
Factory car, built and ready to go performance
Engine
Suspension
LWBS
Looks awesome (except wing)
GT3 Cons:
PDK-S only
Large rear wing (would require mod) - ?? $$
No rear seat (would require seat retrofit) - ?? $$
Cost ($140k for a '15 or '16 in prime condition)
To each their own. For me, the cost of the mods + car above will be approximately $110k all in with tax. For the GT3, hard to say exactly but let's say I get a $140k car + tax/reg + $3k for rear wing delete and rear seat addition = $157k. For the difference of $47k I'd easily choose to keep my C2S and consider adding a little more for say a 993 or 964 C2. Different choices for different people, but I'd be super happy with that combo vs. having 1 GT3. Now as prices of the .1 GT3 start to come down a little, perhaps it sways the proportion. And not to further confuse things but no one has mentioned a 997.2 GT3 which does come in Manual and is more in the $110-120k range.
#53
It's been quite a while since I've posted, but your thread has my interest.
I too have a car that I find quite engaging, a 2016 C4S 3.8. I was the first to test drive the 991.2 cars at my dealer last February, but opted for the 3.8. Unfortunately, I really wanted a GTS but decided way late and to pull the trigger, and couldn't find one in the color/scheme I wanted.
That being said, I've felt that there were a few things I wanted to do to sharpen my car up a bit.
Where you and I differ, is that I recognize that my car will never by a R/GT3, but I feel like I can get a lot of the feel, with some individuality while I'm at it. So I figure keeping the back seat is a great idea. As for criticisms of modding cars, this will be probably the dozenth car I've modded, and in my experience, resale depends on the buyer, but keeping mods reversible is always a good idea.
That said, my personal list included some of yours:
How do you like the DSC Sport V2 controller?
The Cobb Tune has been very interesting to me but I worry about warranty issues. I know many mods can void warranty, but tunes are particularly worrying to me. Does it take into account other mods? What happens if you run too lean? Speaking of which...
IPD Plenum: I don't have the power kit, and so I've thought seriously about this one. Why did you remove it from your list? I thought replacing a plastic piece with an aluminum piece would be beneficial, even if gains are modest. I bet it's a satisfying mod, but I wonder about this plus cobb and running lean. I wonder if cobb adjusts the A/F ratio for mods like this.
Something on my list, that I didn't see on yours is a 3rd radiator. I suggest it. I've had a few high performance cars, and even on the street added cooling capabilities is welcomed.
Other bits and pieces I think about: I only have PASM. I would like to get the techart springs. I'd like to replace factory 5mm spacers with 7/15. I debate on adding a front lip spoiler but I kind of like what tech art has, but I want to keep the retractable wing. May just add the spasm lip.
I really like your ideas, but I suggest keeping the rear seat. I also have a kid on the way, due in april. How cool is it to have a highly focused carrera with back seats that can do more than 90% of cars on the road?
I too have a car that I find quite engaging, a 2016 C4S 3.8. I was the first to test drive the 991.2 cars at my dealer last February, but opted for the 3.8. Unfortunately, I really wanted a GTS but decided way late and to pull the trigger, and couldn't find one in the color/scheme I wanted.
That being said, I've felt that there were a few things I wanted to do to sharpen my car up a bit.
Where you and I differ, is that I recognize that my car will never by a R/GT3, but I feel like I can get a lot of the feel, with some individuality while I'm at it. So I figure keeping the back seat is a great idea. As for criticisms of modding cars, this will be probably the dozenth car I've modded, and in my experience, resale depends on the buyer, but keeping mods reversible is always a good idea.
That said, my personal list included some of yours:
How do you like the DSC Sport V2 controller?
The Cobb Tune has been very interesting to me but I worry about warranty issues. I know many mods can void warranty, but tunes are particularly worrying to me. Does it take into account other mods? What happens if you run too lean? Speaking of which...
IPD Plenum: I don't have the power kit, and so I've thought seriously about this one. Why did you remove it from your list? I thought replacing a plastic piece with an aluminum piece would be beneficial, even if gains are modest. I bet it's a satisfying mod, but I wonder about this plus cobb and running lean. I wonder if cobb adjusts the A/F ratio for mods like this.
Something on my list, that I didn't see on yours is a 3rd radiator. I suggest it. I've had a few high performance cars, and even on the street added cooling capabilities is welcomed.
Other bits and pieces I think about: I only have PASM. I would like to get the techart springs. I'd like to replace factory 5mm spacers with 7/15. I debate on adding a front lip spoiler but I kind of like what tech art has, but I want to keep the retractable wing. May just add the spasm lip.
I really like your ideas, but I suggest keeping the rear seat. I also have a kid on the way, due in april. How cool is it to have a highly focused carrera with back seats that can do more than 90% of cars on the road?
#54
Banned
I know you get a kick out of me. I shoot from the hip. That isn't a problem though. The perfect 911 is a 991 chassis with a 3.8 that revs to at least 8400 rpm. No RWS and a mechanical lsd and a six speed. I know it doesn't exist but it shouldn't be so hard to build. Aftermarket is scared but a 6 speed gts with gears would be a hoot. I just didn't have the patients to participate. It was enough to for me to beat a GTR under my watch. The rest is under your watch.
#55
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Since the GT4 uses the 3.8 from the CS, you might be good, but of course the transmission is different so who knows.
#58
Advanced
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Garmisch Partenkirchen Germany
Posts: 86
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11 Posts
Originally Posted by NoGaBiker
IMO, modding older Porsches can make lots of sense; big mods to nearly-current-gen cars is a romantic pasttime best entered into with eyes wide open -- which it sounds like our friend Titleistadict is doing. Hey, if it keeps him off the golf course it can't be a bad idea.
Let's not forget the gentleman who built a complete GT3 exterior onto his GTS last year, for what must have been an extraordinary cost; he loved the GT3 aero-look, but wanted a backseat and a manual, iirc, maybe AWD. Anyway, he fitted all the GT3 panels and wings, rerouted the exhaust, and it was a very big job. If he were to sell that car now it would probably bring a couple grand more than a regular GTS, maybe 5k to just the right buyer. But it's what he wanted, so good for him.
Let's not forget the gentleman who built a complete GT3 exterior onto his GTS last year, for what must have been an extraordinary cost; he loved the GT3 aero-look, but wanted a backseat and a manual, iirc, maybe AWD. Anyway, he fitted all the GT3 panels and wings, rerouted the exhaust, and it was a very big job. If he were to sell that car now it would probably bring a couple grand more than a regular GTS, maybe 5k to just the right buyer. But it's what he wanted, so good for him.
And yes for the right petrolhead i would sell the car and start a new project ( 991.2 turbo to gt3 rs exterior conversion) ... unfortunately i'm in europe.
#59
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
It's been quite a while since I've posted, but your thread has my interest.
How do you like the DSC Sport V2 controller?
The Cobb Tune has been very interesting to me but I worry about warranty issues. I know many mods can void warranty, but tunes are particularly worrying to me. Does it take into account other mods? What happens if you run too lean? Speaking of which...
IPD Plenum: I don't have the power kit, and so I've thought seriously about this one. Why did you remove it from your list? I thought replacing a plastic piece with an aluminum piece would be beneficial, even if gains are modest. I bet it's a satisfying mod, but I wonder about this plus cobb and running lean. I wonder if cobb adjusts the A/F ratio for mods like this.
Something on my list, that I didn't see on yours is a 3rd radiator. I suggest it. I've had a few high performance cars, and even on the street added cooling capabilities is welcomed.
I really like your ideas, but I suggest keeping the rear seat. I also have a kid on the way, due in april. How cool is it to have a highly focused carrera with back seats that can do more than 90% of cars on the road?
How do you like the DSC Sport V2 controller?
The Cobb Tune has been very interesting to me but I worry about warranty issues. I know many mods can void warranty, but tunes are particularly worrying to me. Does it take into account other mods? What happens if you run too lean? Speaking of which...
IPD Plenum: I don't have the power kit, and so I've thought seriously about this one. Why did you remove it from your list? I thought replacing a plastic piece with an aluminum piece would be beneficial, even if gains are modest. I bet it's a satisfying mod, but I wonder about this plus cobb and running lean. I wonder if cobb adjusts the A/F ratio for mods like this.
Something on my list, that I didn't see on yours is a 3rd radiator. I suggest it. I've had a few high performance cars, and even on the street added cooling capabilities is welcomed.
I really like your ideas, but I suggest keeping the rear seat. I also have a kid on the way, due in april. How cool is it to have a highly focused carrera with back seats that can do more than 90% of cars on the road?
Re: Cobb, I would only do this if I decided to do more power mods than the exhaust. IMO if you do plenum, headers, and exhaust, you will benefit greatly with a custom tune through Fabspeed or anyone else to prevent running lean like you say.
3rd radiator is a cheap and easy mod and I was thinking about this, especially w the power mods above. If I just keep it to the exhaust, may skip, but definitely like the look of the grille up front vs. the solid plastic piece.
Contrats on the kid! Will definitely keep the back seat for when she comes but may try taking out in the meantime to see the effect. Takes about 15 mins to insert/remove.
Contact Sharkwerks and ask what they did to their GT4 (if you haven't seen in, check YouTube for Smoking Tire / Matt Farrah's review on it. They swapped a LWFW and also had gears 2-4 shortened. Believe that they said Guard did it. They said it was about $10k and that a final drive wasn't available. Could be just on the Cayman.
Since the GT4 uses the 3.8 from the CS, you might be good, but of course the transmission is different so who knows.
Since the GT4 uses the 3.8 from the CS, you might be good, but of course the transmission is different so who knows.
#60
Basic Sponsor
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DSC V2 is AWESOME. Transforms the ride and the car completely. Before I thought the SPASM was too rough in the wrong places and just seemed to upset the car when going over expansion joints on the freeway and uneven roads. With DSC, the ride has smoothed out significantly. Everything reacts better to sudden changes, and there is a lot less squat and dive under hard acceleration and braking. I'm very pleased with the mod and highly recommend it. Larry Cable was even nice enough to send me his custom maps which I would highly recommend over the standard.
Re: Cobb, I would only do this if I decided to do more power mods than the exhaust. IMO if you do plenum, headers, and exhaust, you will benefit greatly with a custom tune through Fabspeed or anyone else to prevent running lean like you say.
3rd radiator is a cheap and easy mod and I was thinking about this, especially w the power mods above. If I just keep it to the exhaust, may skip, but definitely like the look of the grille up front vs. the solid plastic piece.
Contrats on the kid! Will definitely keep the back seat for when she comes but may try taking out in the meantime to see the effect. Takes about 15 mins to insert/remove.
I will contact Sharkwerks and Guards both. Seems like a not crazy idea to dramatically change the way the car revs and feels.
Re: Cobb, I would only do this if I decided to do more power mods than the exhaust. IMO if you do plenum, headers, and exhaust, you will benefit greatly with a custom tune through Fabspeed or anyone else to prevent running lean like you say.
3rd radiator is a cheap and easy mod and I was thinking about this, especially w the power mods above. If I just keep it to the exhaust, may skip, but definitely like the look of the grille up front vs. the solid plastic piece.
Contrats on the kid! Will definitely keep the back seat for when she comes but may try taking out in the meantime to see the effect. Takes about 15 mins to insert/remove.
I will contact Sharkwerks and Guards both. Seems like a not crazy idea to dramatically change the way the car revs and feels.
Glad to hear you are enjoying the DSC module, we are a distributor of them and every one of my clients running it are beyond thrilled. It is quite the underrated mod!
__________________
Porsche Performance Specialist
John@Fabspeed.com
215-618-9796
Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive Fort Washington, PA 19034
www.Fabspeed.com
Porsche Performance Specialist
John@Fabspeed.com
215-618-9796
Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive Fort Washington, PA 19034
www.Fabspeed.com