991.2 "undisguised"
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You do realize M3/4 are basically a souped up family sedan that can comfortable seat four and carry a week worth of luggage, with a chassis weights 3600lbs paired undersized tires (245 and 275 tires vs the 245 and 305 tires on the 991) and super conservative factory alignment that induces tons of understeer. And you are comparing to a 3000lbs dedicated sports car chassis with rear seats that can only fit children with no legs. Yes, of course M3/4 will be much slower despite the power advantage.
Please spend the time to research the hard facts before posting...
Please spend the time to research the hard facts before posting...
Seriously, you're just pulling stuff out of your *** at this point. I'm not sure what enviro group you're schilling for, but I'm sure right now you're being missed over at greenercars.org.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2014
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From: East Coast, USA
Okay, I'll slow down, try to follow me here. I'm not sure your reading comprehension skills are perfected yet. What I'm saying is, in real world conditions, all the high power turbo cars you mention get equal or worse mileage than the NA counterparts. The M4 twin turbo gets worse mileage than my C2S and it turns a slower Ring time. So explain to me how it's a step forward?
My point is, the only cars that will get significantly better mileage than their naturally aspirated cousins are lower power turbos driven in a calm manner. Neither of which has a lot to do with sports cars or their owners. This is a regulatory play, largely gaming at that given the European standards stupidity.
My point is, the only cars that will get significantly better mileage than their naturally aspirated cousins are lower power turbos driven in a calm manner. Neither of which has a lot to do with sports cars or their owners. This is a regulatory play, largely gaming at that given the European standards stupidity.
Yes, and I also own a 450 HP RS5 that's naturally aspirated and is rated 16/23, 1 mpg worse than the M4, soley due to the excess weight of AWD, which is an acceptable trade off for me for winter performance. So again, please explain to me why this turbo charging is awesomer…..
Seriously, you're just pulling stuff out of your *** at this point. I'm not sure what enviro group you're schilling for, but I'm sure right now you're being missed over at greenercars.org.
Seriously, you're just pulling stuff out of your *** at this point. I'm not sure what enviro group you're schilling for, but I'm sure right now you're being missed over at greenercars.org.
So trust me, I am definitely not pulling stuff out of my *** and definitely know what I am talking about when it comes to pointing out the weakness in the BMW chassis. Hell, why would I bother to spend +$100k for a 991.2 down the line if I don't think the 991 chassis is much more superior than anything BMW can crank out. You are free to google up my username in the BMW forums if you guys think I am some sort of covert marketing person hired by Porsche, lol. I might be a bit biased in my opinion about turbocharge given my experience, but my points are all derived from years of experiencing in working on and driving the car on track and street.
Honestly, Audi RS5 is so far removed from being a true sports car, even when compared to a BMW E92 or F82, let alone a Porsche 911, I honestly have no idea why you are even bringing that car into the conversation... And I am willing to bet you have never driven either of these cars on a proper track. And for the record, I doubt the true horsepower output from the RS5 is anywhere near the severely underrated S55 engine found in the M4 (as I mentioned, S55 has been dyno'd at 420whp numerous times, which is equivalent to 470-490hp at the crank, turbo engines are typically very underrated from the German manufacturers).
Anyway, if you are motivated and intelligent enough, there is plenty of information online to educate yourself why the BMW is slower than a 911 despite the power advantage.
Last edited by cloud9blue; Jul 26, 2015 at 02:38 AM.
Instructor
Joined: May 2015
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The 911T is rated 17/24. The C2S is rated 20/27. And the M4 twin turbo all the tree huggers love to use an example of success in turbo charging is rated at...17/24. So my NA 991 gets better mileage than the current turbo charged M4 using the U.S. testing method, which is more realistic than the European method. And we all know that owners, of any of these cars, are typically getting mixed driving mileage at or below the city rating.
My general point being, I have no beef with people who like NA engines better than turbos or vice versa. Heck, it's fine if people like the letter T or the letter N better and consider that their sole justification. I just object strongly to bad science being touted as a reason. Forced Induction engines are, HP for HP and lb-ft for lb-ft, more efficient than NA engines. They also feel different. Some people like high-revving NAs, others like the low-end grunt of a good turbo. To each his or her own.
Last edited by strumbringer; Jul 26, 2015 at 03:23 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
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From: FL
991.2 "undisguised"
This 991.2 thing is really getting out of hand with all the different threads. How can one follow? Guys come out of the woodwork and create threads like they're offering some top secret info and going to get a Pulitzer Prize for it. Not to mention, it's all the same stuff pretty much.
Then you have the new turbo cheerleaders also hitting the boards. That's fine if you like turbo vs. NA, etc. I DON'T care, but it does seem like some are here to cause undo drama.
Anyway ... Maybe time to take a break until this 991.2 is finally unveiled in Sept. and things settle down a little hopefully.
Then you have the new turbo cheerleaders also hitting the boards. That's fine if you like turbo vs. NA, etc. I DON'T care, but it does seem like some are here to cause undo drama.
Anyway ... Maybe time to take a break until this 991.2 is finally unveiled in Sept. and things settle down a little hopefully.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2015
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This 991.2 thing is really getting out of hand with all the different threads. How can one follow? Guys come out of the woodwork and create threads like they're offering some top secret info and going to get a Pulitzer Prize for it. Not to mention, it's all the same stuff pretty much.
Then you have the new turbo cheerleaders also hitting the boards. That's fine if you like turbo vs. NA, etc. I DON'T care, but it does seem like some are here to cause undo drama.
Anyway ... Maybe time to take a break until this 991.2 is finally unveiled in Sept. and things settle down a little hopefully.
Then you have the new turbo cheerleaders also hitting the boards. That's fine if you like turbo vs. NA, etc. I DON'T care, but it does seem like some are here to cause undo drama.
Anyway ... Maybe time to take a break until this 991.2 is finally unveiled in Sept. and things settle down a little hopefully.
) but this happens, in my experience, for EVERY car when the new gen comes out. This happened when BMW released the M4, when Chev introduced the new Corvette, etc. I do think that the turbo engine will attract new buyers... it is often the enthusiasts who grew up with the car a certain way that don't like to see the change but new buyers don't care as much. Personally, one of the things drawing me to the current 991.1 is, in fact, the NA engine of the car. As much as I also love and appreciate well executed turbo engines (like my current M4), there is something subjectively wonderful about a NA engine... as much as I'm intrigued by the new tech/etc. in the 991.2, the feel of the 991.1 engine (I had a great run in a 991 GTS) is awesome.
Only time will tell how well the turbos are executed but I bet Porsche gets it right. That doesn't mean "better" for everyone, however.
I will say that I prefer the styling (in photos anyway) of the 991.1 compared to the refreshed car. They are very subtle but, IMO only, I'm not sure many were improvements. Again, hard to really judge until you see the car in person because I find cars are almost always nicer in person than can be captured in pictures.
In any event, I'm happily educating myself about all things Porsche and will hopefully be part of the club in the short term
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
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From: FL
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by gthal
I've not spent time on Porsche forums before (I am doing so now as I plan to move into the Porsche world ) but this happens, in my experience, for EVERY car when the new gen comes out. This happened when BMW released the M4, when Chev introduced the new Corvette, etc.
I do think that the turbo engine will attract new buyers... it is often the enthusiasts who grew up with the car a certain way that don't like to see the change but new buyers don't care as much. Personally, one of the things drawing me to the current 991.1 is, in fact, the NA engine of the car. As much as I also love and appreciate well executed turbo engines (like my current M4), there is something subjectively wonderful about a NA engine... as much as I'm intrigued by the new tech/etc. in the 991.2, the feel of the 991.1 engine (I had a great run in a 991 GTS) is awesome.
Only time will tell how well the turbos are executed but I bet Porsche gets it right. That doesn't mean "better" for everyone, however.
I will say that I prefer the styling (in photos anyway) of the 991.1 compared to the refreshed car. They are very subtle but, IMO only, I'm not sure many were improvements. Again, hard to really judge until you see the car in person because I find cars are almost always nicer in person than can be captured in pictures.
In any event, I'm happily educating myself about all things Porsche and will hopefully be part of the club in the short term
) but this happens, in my experience, for EVERY car when the new gen comes out. This happened when BMW released the M4, when Chev introduced the new Corvette, etc. I do think that the turbo engine will attract new buyers... it is often the enthusiasts who grew up with the car a certain way that don't like to see the change but new buyers don't care as much. Personally, one of the things drawing me to the current 991.1 is, in fact, the NA engine of the car. As much as I also love and appreciate well executed turbo engines (like my current M4), there is something subjectively wonderful about a NA engine... as much as I'm intrigued by the new tech/etc. in the 991.2, the feel of the 991.1 engine (I had a great run in a 991 GTS) is awesome.
Only time will tell how well the turbos are executed but I bet Porsche gets it right. That doesn't mean "better" for everyone, however.
I will say that I prefer the styling (in photos anyway) of the 991.1 compared to the refreshed car. They are very subtle but, IMO only, I'm not sure many were improvements. Again, hard to really judge until you see the car in person because I find cars are almost always nicer in person than can be captured in pictures.
In any event, I'm happily educating myself about all things Porsche and will hopefully be part of the club in the short term
Welcome to the board! The new 991.2 will keep selling, I don't think it will attract and more new buyers than the norm. The model has been selling very well. I don't think it will sell more only because the turbo engine, but honestly I don't expect the turbo engine to hurt sales.
I for one, love my NA and wouldn't want a turbo. I'm not your typical mass "non enthusiast" buyer either. Most buyers will look at HP, having the "newest", and electronic gadgets and buy it.
The NA engine has a soul and sound that can't be duplicated by a turbo. My 400HP Carrera S has enough power for me. It's the driving experience that's the most enjoyable.
Some great pre-owned info here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8636...-the-week.html
I'm biased of course!
Pro
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 586
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From: Boston
Some very passionalte replies on the 991.2
Got to respect the passion that many have expressed in this epic thread. There are plenty of NA 991's available for those who want them, although they may not be precisely configured to one's preferences. Regarding NA engines, I have recently read that the director of development has said that there will be a new NA engine for the Panamera GTS, which is what I want whenever it arrives in a couple of years or so. Who knows? Maybe sooner given the accelerated pace of competition among manufacturers, i.e. the McLaren 570 (turbocharged though it may be). Heck, even Ferrari went to turbos for the 488, so get used to turbos ladies and gentlemen. Of course, there are also used GT3's, and Huracans if one must have NA. For all those who have not driven the 991 TTS, check it out. If you can detect turbo lag you are in a very small minority and the thrust is sensational, even mid-corner with the PDK. There are extremely few cars that outperform the 991 TTS in stock form on the track and it is without question the best value on the market today.
Instructor
Joined: May 2015
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If you can detect turbo lag you are in a very small minority
The TT/S is in the power all the time. At any rev rate, it has better power than the NA. I hope the .2 Carrera/Carrera S engines are implemented equally well.
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Anyone have any idea of what proportion of Porsche sales go to repeat customers vs new buyers?
I'm a first time buyer. The new changes coming was a factor in modivating me to buy a current model now rather than waiting. Chatting with my Porsche salesman, he indicated attracting repeat business was a key part of their business. He confided that long-time enthusiats weren't going to be real keen on the changes on the new model and he was bemoaning the difficulty their sales team will have in pitching the new engines.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,799
Likes: 209
From: FL
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by Koriel
Anyone have any idea of what proportion of Porsche sales go to repeat customers vs new buyers?
I'm a first time buyer. Chatting with my Porsche salesman, he indicated attracting repeat business was a key part of their business. He confided that long-time enthusiats weren't going to be real keen on the changes on the new model and he was bemoaning the difficulty their sales team will have in pitching the new engines.
I'm a first time buyer. Chatting with my Porsche salesman, he indicated attracting repeat business was a key part of their business. He confided that long-time enthusiats weren't going to be real keen on the changes on the new model and he was bemoaning the difficulty their sales team will have in pitching the new engines.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
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From: FL
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by strumbringer
More like if you *think* you can detect turbo lag on the TT/TTS, it's in your head. The TT/S is in the power all the time. At any rev rate, it has better power than the NA. I hope the .2 Carrera/Carrera S engines are implemented equally well.
The TT/S is in the power all the time. At any rev rate, it has better power than the NA. I hope the .2 Carrera/Carrera S engines are implemented equally well.I'll keep referencing this article for those who have not read it. Good reading.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 651
Likes: 510
From: East Coast, USA
Why is it that Porsche can't move them? These cars sit, sit, and sit. I think it's been somewhat of a disappointment for them.
I'll keep referencing this article for those who have not read it. Good reading.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
I'll keep referencing this article for those who have not read it. Good reading.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Yes, my 991TT gets more than the rated 24mpg on the freeway. It's probably better to compare apples to apples - turbocharged Porsches vs NA Porsches and likewise BMWs (entirely different engines, aerodynamics, weight...). Don't know enough about the M4 vs last generation M3, but didn't they make a bunch of noise about this generation being faster and more efficient?
My general point being, I have no beef with people who like NA engines better than turbos or vice versa. Heck, it's fine if people like the letter T or the letter N better and consider that their sole justification. I just object strongly to bad science being touted as a reason. Forced Induction engines are, HP for HP and lb-ft for lb-ft, more efficient than NA engines. They also feel different. Some people like high-revving NAs, others like the low-end grunt of a good turbo. To each his or her own.
My general point being, I have no beef with people who like NA engines better than turbos or vice versa. Heck, it's fine if people like the letter T or the letter N better and consider that their sole justification. I just object strongly to bad science being touted as a reason. Forced Induction engines are, HP for HP and lb-ft for lb-ft, more efficient than NA engines. They also feel different. Some people like high-revving NAs, others like the low-end grunt of a good turbo. To each his or her own.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,799
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From: FL
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by cloud9blue
I am pretty sure that's because most who are spending +$160K would do a custom order instead of just buying whatever it is on the lot.Exactly, thank you.
Most of the Turbo S's are pushing 200K and more. The guys spending that much cash usually are looking at something more exotic.
Rennlist Member
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From: East Coast, USA
After all, to the general publics, these are just one of the dime a dozen 911 you would see in any affluent neighborhood. At the similar price range, cars like Hurrican and 458 and even the AMG GT get a lot more wow factor.