chuckbdc

Right on Chucker. On the way to CnC yesterday at 5:30 am (good spaces are gone by 6), in 27 degree F weather in norther Va, the true answer to the manual-PDK debate became clear. The key to involvement is a heated steering wheel.

WernerE

As an owner of both manual and PDK 911s, I respectfully disagree that shifting with 3 pedals is not part of the experience. It is, seemingly confirmed by the fact this thread is on page 14!

When I took delivery of my 911/50, my heart surged being able to shift again, after a 2 year hiatus with dual clutch transmissions. Having said that, I'll freely admit PDK cars are faster.

chuck911

Its not necessary to disagree, respectfully or otherwise, with something I never said!

Of course shifting is "part of the experience". Its part of the experience of driving a manual!

What I said is, it is nothing to do with driving. As hard as this is for some to believe, but driving and shifting are not one and the same. Shifting simply is not necessary at all, unless you are driving a manual.

Also, again, its really not about speed. PDK would be better even if it shifted no faster than a manual. Why? Because the driver gains better car control and feedback when not having to move one arm and one leg around.

This thread is on pg 14 because so many MT enthusiasts keep muddling these things up.

StudGarden

Seriously, I laugh at all the redonk over optioning on 911's but HSW is an absolutely must have unless you're in a subtropical climate.

Scottish Pete

I get a heated steering wheel for free here near Fresno on a 106 degree summer day. We search for a parking place with the windshield facing away from the sun . . . as well as a ding-free "end space" of course. I'm wearing a t-shirt outside this weekend . . . never even considered a heated steering wheel.
I suppose taking your hands away from the warm steering wheel to shift a manual could be uncomfortable. Does Porsche offer a heated manual shift ****?

Noah Fect

Regardless of transmission choice, what you don't want is a heated shift ****. I still remember test-driving a 993 with a carbon fiber shift ****, on a 100+ degree day in Houston. I spent the next week with

R 1 3 5
2 4 6


tattooed on my right palm...

chuckbdc

Never having had one, I would never have selected the option if I was speccing the car. It was on the one the dealer trapped me with, I mean found for me, that had everything else I wanted. Now, I won't get a car without one as long as I live where the temps drop below freezing. I mean, it's not like its those ridiculous massagers on the S8 Audi they gave me as a loaner. I couldn't stand those things for more than a half hour at a time, and had to change the massage pattern every 10 minutes.

bccars

H&T takes less skill to master than people think it does !

My "connection to the car" is defined by the amount of feedback I get from it. Feedback through the steering wheel, and feedback through my butt and back from the seat/chassis. Shifting MT has me operating the clutch with my left foot, changing my connection to the car in a negative way as my left foot anchor is gone (street car, no racing harness). With PDK my left foot is always braced to the car/chassis in the same manner, so connection and feedback is as consistent as possible !
But tracking or backroad blasting is probably needed to feel the difference here. In day to day driving where little happens in the car, MT and H&T is "involving" because nothing else is going on.

Furthermore, driving or racing a car needs several inputs:
- accellerate (throttle)
- stop (brake)
- left & right (steering wheel)

Shifting itself is just a (sub)function of (obsolete) technology that is needed to accellerate. The shifting itself does nothing positive for a car. It just upsets chassis balance, interferes with accelleration, breaks your connection to the car ...

People forget that when you decluth, you are effectively loosing 1 faculty to control your car, ie accelleration/throttle. Time declutched with PDK is soooo much shorter, hence less control lost.

maxpowers

If changing gears has nothing to do with driving and the PDK is so much better at shifting then why does it have paddles and a manual mode?

You can't shift yourself. You can only shift sequentially with flappy paddles. Want to downshift from 6th to 2nd? Better start flapping away?

I'd rather put my foot on clutch, rev the engine to match the speed, and put the gearshift right into the gear I want.

If shifting has nothing to do with driving, why do you have a transmission in the car at all? Why not try driving a car with a direct connection between the engine and rear wheels without the annoying shifting and gears in the way? Why don't you start your automatic in 5th gear and see how it goes?

Porsche went to PDK because they can share it with the SUV and sedan and make more $ on the heavy, boring, complicated technology. It's also designed for people who buy a Porsche to match their purse and don't have the skill or inclination to be bothered to actually enjoy driving the car. If Porsche only cared about performance they wouldn't have offered automatics that were slower than the manual for all these years. It's almost like they were happy to put high margin automatics in their cars despite being a huge drag on performance. People say tiptronic was a disaster, yet they sold as well as the PDK. It's the same people buying them

neanicu

You're making a " killing " here maxpowers! Keep it up! Love it!
They will come back at you with " grandmas drive manuals in Europe " ,old technology and the GRAND FINALE-newest addition,never heard before : PDK is actually more involving than manual because you can concentrate more on the rest of the components that provide feedback-like the electric steering!

StudGarden

While PDK is clearly the superior transmission, there's a role for the MT in creating an artificial level of "involvement" in otherwise boring DD scenarios. So it makes sense to spec it in some cases. Hydraulic power steering OTOH is a bygone relic and good riddance.

It never provided "feedback" or any level of connection to the car or road. It only created a fake feeling as the driver felt the constant pump cavitation and change overs, plus the fake "connection" of power being robbed from the engine (PTO's are for dump trucks and bobcats).

There is no such thing as feedback that you can add in steering by powering it by any source. If you want pure feedback, either have no power steering or have it graduated so it essentially cuts out at speed. Only the lack of power steering is pure "feedback"; anything else is just degrees of removal from that by default.

Electric is much smoother and more of a direct feeling of connection than a constantly reversing belt driven pump working sloshy lines of fluid, always a fraction of a second too late causing the driver to fight what they were doing just a fraction of a second ago. Old habits die hard though, and good drivers can learn to work around just about any embedded inferiority and eventually get used to it and even think they like it.

So while MT is a fine gearbox (and one I would definitely spec in some builds) hydraulic assist steering is pure tactile spam. I'm glad it's gone, don't think it'll ever come back, good riddance to inferior technology.

Noah Fect

As I've mentioned several times, transmissions are a workaround for a bug in the way IC engines work. Believe me, if that bug weren't present, your transmission wouldn't be, either. Automakers would love to get rid of a hellishly complex and expensive part on the car that contributes nothing to handling, braking, or power generation.

Bacura

Nothing about grandmothers. I simply want to say I got sick of MT and now prefer PDK. It has nothing to do with being faster than MT. After
35 years of driving stick I just simply didn't enjoy it anymore. I find my PDK equipped 911/50 very sporty/engaging/fun. I used to love my MT.....just enjoy the PDK more. Not a debate really.

Vise

Trolling hard here, keep up the good work.

Warning to everyone else interested in an intelligent conversation on the merits of manual vs PDK and vice versa...

porsche9xx

Your statement is accurate and as someone who has driven three different electric cars (two of which had a true 1 speed transmission) for three years and 40,000 miles I can say that for my DD that was not such a problem but as I was placing my order on my 991S Cab (fun car) I definitely wanted to have that "bug" installed.

The PDK is better in many objective standards just like the 991 is better than previous 911s but yet people somehow still find subjective value in paying good money for the old "buggy" technology (prices for air-cooled cars as evidence).

The PDK has won this debate already since dealer lots are full of PDK cars and most salespeople (at least that I have encountered) will try to steer you toward a PDK but this debate is good to show that if you do decide to go manual (like I have) your not crazy and lots of Porsche fans find reasons to still buy them.