The now "age old debate" PDK vs Manual in the GTS, HELP
11-14-2014, 07:26 AM
#151
Three Wheelin'
Ladies and gentlemen, there are certain facts that have to be mentioned.
Driving a manual transmission is in fact more involving and engaging for the driver than a PDK.
This is a fact.
When accelerating a PDK in "Manual" mode all you need to do is put the car into gear and step on the throttle and keep it floored, and pull on the right flappy paddle and the computer will switch the gears right up from first to seventh. That's real engaging, maybe for your index finger. LOL
You don't even need to let your right foot off the gas pedal.
When accelerating with a manual, you need to step on the clutch, engage first gear, then slowly release the clutch pedal and at the same time push on the accelerator pedal, then release the throttle pedal engage the clutch, and do this ballet of sorts all the way up through the gears until you reach 7th gear.
When decelerating into a corner in a PDK, you apply the brakes and simply pull on the left flappy paddle and the computer not only switches down a gear, but at the same time blips the throttle automatically to perfectly match the engine speed with the transmission.
When decelerating into a corner in a manual, you (not so simply) engage the clutch with your left foot, and while at the same time applying the brakes and blipping the throttle pedal the appropriate amount with your right foot.
This my friends takes coordination and skill to get it just right. And lots of practice.
Whereas anyone and your grandmother can drive a PDK equipped 911, while driving a manual transmission expertly and correctly takes a fair amount of skill and co-ordination.
The major difference between the two are:
Driving a manual takes driver skill and co-ordination.
Driving a PDK takes very little skill or co-ordination.
People are getting lazier these days and more are opting for the PDK because it takes less effort, less skill and less co-ordination, and most people don't want to take the time or make the effort to properly learn how to drive a manual transmission.
And for anyone to say that a manual transmission is not more engaging/involving for the driver than a PDK, simply doesn't know how to properly drive a manual, or doesn't know what they are talking about.
Really just common sense.
By the way, got into a PDK 911 was intrigued for the first 10 minutes, then quickly bored.
Enough said.
Driving a manual transmission is in fact more involving and engaging for the driver than a PDK.
This is a fact.
When accelerating a PDK in "Manual" mode all you need to do is put the car into gear and step on the throttle and keep it floored, and pull on the right flappy paddle and the computer will switch the gears right up from first to seventh. That's real engaging, maybe for your index finger. LOL
You don't even need to let your right foot off the gas pedal.
When accelerating with a manual, you need to step on the clutch, engage first gear, then slowly release the clutch pedal and at the same time push on the accelerator pedal, then release the throttle pedal engage the clutch, and do this ballet of sorts all the way up through the gears until you reach 7th gear.
When decelerating into a corner in a PDK, you apply the brakes and simply pull on the left flappy paddle and the computer not only switches down a gear, but at the same time blips the throttle automatically to perfectly match the engine speed with the transmission.
When decelerating into a corner in a manual, you (not so simply) engage the clutch with your left foot, and while at the same time applying the brakes and blipping the throttle pedal the appropriate amount with your right foot.
This my friends takes coordination and skill to get it just right. And lots of practice.
Whereas anyone and your grandmother can drive a PDK equipped 911, while driving a manual transmission expertly and correctly takes a fair amount of skill and co-ordination.
The major difference between the two are:
Driving a manual takes driver skill and co-ordination.
Driving a PDK takes very little skill or co-ordination.
People are getting lazier these days and more are opting for the PDK because it takes less effort, less skill and less co-ordination, and most people don't want to take the time or make the effort to properly learn how to drive a manual transmission.
And for anyone to say that a manual transmission is not more engaging/involving for the driver than a PDK, simply doesn't know how to properly drive a manual, or doesn't know what they are talking about.
Really just common sense.
By the way, got into a PDK 911 was intrigued for the first 10 minutes, then quickly bored.
Enough said.
I'm quite bored by the menial labour of shifting after decades of H&T, which honestly does not take soo much skill or practice at all. It's not the black magic you guys like to pretend it is. It's just plain boring and has nothing to do with DRIVING a car.
I prefer my modern sportscars with dual clutch so I have that better connection to the car, and take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance !
So indeed, enough said !
11-14-2014, 09:51 AM
#153
Drifting
I promised myself that I would post my opinion and not read the 150 pages of comments. But it's kind of like a train wreck: you have to look.
True that. But to be fair, they have no choice, so there could be a lot of rationalization going on.
So, yes, I had a PDK in my Panamera S, it not being offered with a manual transmission in this country. To keep it brief, aside from all of the nasty comments from people about me driving a large-arsed station wagon, the reason I sold the car after a year was the PDK. It is an amazing bit of technology, but it's not for me. Especially not in a sports car, which is why when I ordered my 991, it came with three pedals.
Yes. No. No. Auto most of the time.
To the OP: I suggest that since you are very familiar with the M/T, you borrow a PDK car from your dealership for a few days. Maybe a Cayman service loaner, or even one of those SUV things. Whatever they've got. If after a few days you still love it and you have no desire for a clutch, then order your car with that. If you miss the involvement or don't care for some aspects of the PDK, then you saved yourself $4500 and a lot of heartache.
True that. But to be fair, they have no choice, so there could be a lot of rationalization going on.
To the OP: I suggest that since you are very familiar with the M/T, you borrow a PDK car from your dealership for a few days. Maybe a Cayman service loaner, or even one of those SUV things. Whatever they've got. If after a few days you still love it and you have no desire for a clutch, then order your car with that. If you miss the involvement or don't care for some aspects of the PDK, then you saved yourself $4500 and a lot of heartache.
11-14-2014, 10:01 AM
#154
Burning Brakes
In 10 years I can leave our MT 991 unlocked since the next-gen wont be able to drive it much less steal it. 
Last edited by MerlinsGarage; 11-14-2014 at 10:20 AM.
11-14-2014, 10:16 AM
#155
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, I "locked" my order yesterday, and it is a manual GTS4 (rhodium silver - wanted a not too show off car for dd - two tone black/red interior, 18way sport seats, premium plus pack, Burmester stereo and a few other options.
Then I think will change my RS later on for a the new GT3 with PDK-S or potentially wait one generation then get the GT3. I would love to have the PDK-s on the track but not in a DD car.Thats how I see now the transmission question.
Then I think will change my RS later on for a the new GT3 with PDK-S or potentially wait one generation then get the GT3. I would love to have the PDK-s on the track but not in a DD car.Thats how I see now the transmission question.
11-14-2014, 10:21 AM
#156
Nordschleife Master
Funny,I was at a friends house and left my car there(E46 M3). Me and my friend went to a supermarket nearby. His teenager son joined us. When it was time to come back we got lazy so his son suggested he'll bring my car for us. Before I could say something he asked me if it's automatic or manual. When I said manual he said he can't drive it. I was relieved for not having to tell him he's not driving my car. Lol!
11-14-2014, 10:43 AM
#157
Three Wheelin'
Funny,I was at a friends house and left my car there(E46 M3). Me and my friend went to a supermarket nearby. His teenager son joined us. When it was time to come back we got lazy so his son suggested he'll bring my car for us. Before I could say something he asked me if it's automatic or manual. When I said manual he said he can't drive it. I was relieved for not having to tell him he's not driving my car. Lol!
I had the same thing over here when I was out with a Caterham with a detachable steering wheel. I left it with the top down and took the steering wheel with me to get a drink. You should have seen the look on the waitresses face when she saw me put the steering wheel on the table and I told her it was my theft deterrant.
Nevertheless, don't ever leave your car unlocked with the idea nobody will be able to drive off with it because it's MT over here in Europe. You'll be calling your theft insurance in no time !
11-14-2014, 10:55 AM
#158
Three Wheelin'
-2- MORE satisfying than a manual
-3- I DO NOT left foot brake (I need my left foot as leverage to keep my connection to the car as good and as consistent as possible since I'm not strapped into a harness)
-4- auto and normal mode on AutoBahn or city driving, manual (shifting with the pdk stick) and sport mode on spirited backroad driving.
11-15-2014, 12:32 AM
#159
Come over to Europe, everyone and your grandmother drives a stick !
I'm quite bored by the menial labour of shifting after decades of H&T, which honestly does not take so much skill or practice at all. It's not the black magic you guys like to pretend it is. It's just plain boring and has nothing to do with DRIVING a car.
I prefer my modern sportscars with dual clutch so I have that better connection to the car, and take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance !!
I'm quite bored by the menial labour of shifting after decades of H&T, which honestly does not take so much skill or practice at all. It's not the black magic you guys like to pretend it is. It's just plain boring and has nothing to do with DRIVING a car.
I prefer my modern sportscars with dual clutch so I have that better connection to the car, and take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance !!
Americans though, lots of them bought big heavy luxury cars with automatics. The market segment for small sporty enthusiast cars was relatively smaller. But within that market segment nearly 100% of the cars were manual.
Over time Americans "learned" the (false) "lesson" that clutch equals sports car.
Europeans on this one definitely have the better understanding. PDK eliminates one of the last remaining menial chores preventing people from being 100% involved in pure driving enjoyment.
Speaking of which hey, did anyone answer my question about double clutching being twice as good as clutching?
11-15-2014, 11:26 AM
#160
Drifting
In case it wasn't totally apparent in my last post how retarded I find these discussions I'll give you my honest assessment and comparison of the two transmission. Again, this is my opinion, there are many like it, but this one is mine.
I traded in my 7MT 911 for a 911 turbo with PDK. First off, I LOVE manual cars, I love the process, I love the fact that my wife can't drive it, and on the back roads with the windows down there is nothing better than rowing your own gears.
I think these discussions happen mostly in the US, because fact is - many americans can't drive stick. So this makes the manual 911 experience a bit more exclusive, and that plays a huge role. But this doesn't make you a race car driver. Yes, it might give you the illusion of being more connected to the car, but in the end you just participate in an extra step when shifting. Again, I love it, but it is hardly an incredible skill. It also doesn't mean you are a purist, otherwise you would drive an air-cooled 911. But my guess is that you prefer to daily a car that has evolved a bit. However, I do believe we'd all love to have one sitting next to a modern 911.
And that brings us to the modern 911... they evolve, the engine evolves, chassis, etc... and of course the transmission. My latest purchase (insane according to my wife) had one single purpose and drive - speed. And since I am such a child and obsessive - seconds on the track matter to me, and when you approach it like that there is only one choice - PDK. I'm not racing in the vintage Mille Miglia, but at events dealing with GT-R's, M3's, etc... having a manual tranny (you're welcome) is a handicap. So while I will miss the manual back road drive shifting myself at some point, I will not miss the delay in shifting on the track. Now I just get beaten because I'm a ****ty driver without an excuse anymore.
I traded in my 7MT 911 for a 911 turbo with PDK. First off, I LOVE manual cars, I love the process, I love the fact that my wife can't drive it, and on the back roads with the windows down there is nothing better than rowing your own gears.
I think these discussions happen mostly in the US, because fact is - many americans can't drive stick. So this makes the manual 911 experience a bit more exclusive, and that plays a huge role. But this doesn't make you a race car driver. Yes, it might give you the illusion of being more connected to the car, but in the end you just participate in an extra step when shifting. Again, I love it, but it is hardly an incredible skill. It also doesn't mean you are a purist, otherwise you would drive an air-cooled 911. But my guess is that you prefer to daily a car that has evolved a bit. However, I do believe we'd all love to have one sitting next to a modern 911.
And that brings us to the modern 911... they evolve, the engine evolves, chassis, etc... and of course the transmission. My latest purchase (insane according to my wife) had one single purpose and drive - speed. And since I am such a child and obsessive - seconds on the track matter to me, and when you approach it like that there is only one choice - PDK. I'm not racing in the vintage Mille Miglia, but at events dealing with GT-R's, M3's, etc... having a manual tranny (you're welcome) is a handicap. So while I will miss the manual back road drive shifting myself at some point, I will not miss the delay in shifting on the track. Now I just get beaten because I'm a ****ty driver without an excuse anymore.
11-15-2014, 11:57 AM
#161
Come over to Europe, everyone and your grandmother drives a stick !
I'm quite bored by the menial labour of shifting after decades of H&T, which honestly does not take soo much skill or practice at all. It's not the black magic you guys like to pretend it is. It's just plain boring and has nothing to do with DRIVING a car.
I prefer my modern sportscars with dual clutch so I have that better connection to the car, and take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance !
So indeed, enough said !
I'm quite bored by the menial labour of shifting after decades of H&T, which honestly does not take soo much skill or practice at all. It's not the black magic you guys like to pretend it is. It's just plain boring and has nothing to do with DRIVING a car.
I prefer my modern sportscars with dual clutch so I have that better connection to the car, and take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance !
So indeed, enough said !
I agree with your assertion that it doesn't take much skill to drive a MT on the street, but when you track your car, and many Porsche owners do, it takes a great deal of skill to master heel/toe in order to execute downshifts flawlessly. Also, I don't follow your logic that having a computer execute shifts for you, enhances your connection to the car. Would having the computer do the steering and braking for you, to use your words "take it to the next level of being in tune with the driving experience and performance"?
Granted that computers can shift and downshift flawlessly and far faster than any human, just like computers will in a short period of time be able to do the steering and braking far better than any human. But I certainly wouldn't look forward to my drives in that car.
11-15-2014, 12:09 PM
#163
Drifting
11-15-2014, 12:15 PM
#164
Nordschleife Master
Ridiculous debate. There is no right or wrong answer. It is what YOU want and what YOU like. Nothing more. No winners, no losers. The OP has made his choice. Can't believe this is still being discussed.
11-15-2014, 12:31 PM
#165
Crazy yet compelling debate confusing complexity and effort with fun. For all those making an argument for MT based on how much effort or precision or skill it takes (or similar) then I wonder why you wouldn't be using a typewriter or telegram to make your case.... For those who make the MT argument for driving pleasure then I get it... completely. And as chuck says... Dismissing the pdk because there is software assistance in line is just crazy... Anyone miss the fact that your right foot and steering are also in that same boat?
P.s. Looking forward to the next 90 pages of this opinionated thread.... Let's just make sure there is a good dose of humour and irony in the debate
P.s. Looking forward to the next 90 pages of this opinionated thread.... Let's just make sure there is a good dose of humour and irony in the debate
I don't think people are saying that just because it's a skill it means it's better. People are saying it's a rewarding and satisfying skill. The automatic PDK is automating something we don't want automated.
There's a difference between using a typewriter, which is simply a means to and end and something you enjoy doing that also requires basic coordination. No one looks forward to the joy of typing, but plenty of people buy a sports car for the joy of driving, which includes shifting yourself. Why do people play real sports and want to learn to shoot a basketball or throw a football when they can play a videogame and throw perfectly every time? It's because it's something they enjoy and want to do. If there was an automatic football throwing device to save you from the chore of throwing a football and it was used in professional games, would you get one for your games with your friends?
PDK isn't simply dismissed because of software assistance, but because there's a layer of software between you and the gear changes that take away the feel and hence the fun.
To the PDK people, would you buy a pill to replace your favorite food so you don't have to go through the chore of using a utensil, putting the food in your mouth, and chewing? The pill is much more efficient and simpler, plus it can be enhanced to not only include the nutrition from the food, but have other nutrients as well. When you sit down to enjoy a meal you're really looking forward to the nutritional properties, right? Who would want to be old fashioned and enjoy the process of eating?
Can someone with the PDK explain why it even has paddles when the computer can decide better than any person what gear to be in and is more efficient? Why do you want to be distracted with flappy paddles when you can focus on mashing the gas pedal? Isn't the fun with the automatic that you feel the shifts the computer is making as you sit there passively?