porshanut

petee1197-Very well said! I am looking forward to seeing the 991.2, probably at Rennsport V. However, I am still on the fence of a GTS or waiting for the .2 S. Hard decision.

Vise

Really? The AMG GT could have 1000hp for $75k and people that buy 911's still wouldn't consider one. Porsche sells every 911 they make at the highest profit margins in the industry... I'm sure there is some mild concern over the AMG but Porsche does not need to win or even compete in the HP/dollar wars to sell 911s.

Your experience/opinion may vary of course... having the chance to drive other cars in the segment and the ability to afford anything considered a direct competitor I still decided to go with the 911 at a higher price. I'm sure I'm not the only one either.

997rs4.0

How high do these new Mercedes engines rev?

STG

+1

I wouldn't buy that Mercedes for even for 75K

Geez the only thing that seems to matter to some people is HP, HP, HP ... Are all those guys doing straight line drives at the drag strip? I can't even use my Carrera S near to it's full potential on any public road.

I'm telling you, HP is one universally understood car measure talk at the work water cooler pissing match. Not saying it's not important, but not the end all either. For those that think they're going to see a 100HP jump from the 991.2 you're living in a fantasy world.

I think the Cayenne had a significant base price jump in the new face lifted turbo version didn't it?

Why don't some of those HP fans make a chart of the cheapest/biggest HP cars for the dollar and I'm sure many of them wouldn't buy them.

Chart anyone?

997rs4.0

Can't find it now but if I remember correctly someone made a chart in the 991gt3 forum about hp-weight- price??? The corvette was the best bang for buck car!

chuckbdc

Really.

My 991C2s is by far the best of 911s I have owned and tracked since 1974. I can't even convince myself to get a GTS or a Turbo. I would instantly go for GT3 had I not lived with a track optimized 911SC for 30 years.

I see from the mag tests that the Merc is about on a par with the Porsche GTS in performance and not as together a machine. But if you can find me a 1000 HP AMG GT for $75k:

STG

How many 911 guys do you see defecting to the Corvette then?

Maybe HP per $ isn't the end all as some conclude.

The 911 has had HP increases every generation without the help of "Turboization". I didn't realize that we had maxed out NA engine HP output. Have we?

Petevb

Yep, that's another way to make an engine effectively "smaller". Not ideal because you still have the friction of the unused cylinders, but it's a very viable strategy. I'm not entirely sure why Porsche hasn't gone that route, perhaps harder to implement with overhead valves? Unfortunately manufactures generally don't publish these charts- I've yet to come across one for the newest LT1.
For some people this is clearly true: "there is no substitute" is a powerful tool to drive profits. However Porsche themselves are happy to charge you far more money for a little more hp, so they seem to on the one hand tell us that power isn't important, while on the other hand telling us it is. We'll see how long they can keep that up...

On the cost front, you've seen how much of the Carrera S engine is shared with the base Boxster? Those engines cost the same, or more accurately the Boxster engine probably costs more because they needed to go to the trouble of de-tuning it. Yet how much more are they able to charge? Shared components here:


Yea that was mine, chart below. What's interesting is that other manufactures, including Ferrari who arguably have both exclusivity and style over Porsche, are rapidly improving on the cost/ performance front, while Porsche isn't. We'll see if they can keep it up...




Original thread here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...tatistics.html

chuckbdc

Pete's last chart places the Cayman S and GT3 a bit above the line. Fits my perception of value in general, even if I value other things with my C2S.

StudGarden

My 400hp 3.8 gets 5-6 mpg more in real world conditions than my old 1.9 120ish hp Saturn used to. Older vs newer etc I guess.

I'm sure Porsche will do it right though. Or at least among the best. They seem to leave a lot on the table. Does anyone really think the power kit costs them anywhere remotely close to 17k? Lol I bet their bottom line difference is almost nothing.

Here's to hoping NA values hit a shallower bottom sooner because of all this!

997rs4.0

You don't have to convince me!!!! If you look at the cars I own! 😃😃😃 I would never buy a corvette...

STG

I suppose you don't fall into these categories?

http://carzz.co/designbook/2507/ten-...r-stereotypes/

Hilarious:

"or a Porsche that keeps the mechanic's son in medical school"

STG

Now our turn. Funny stuff!

http://carzz.co/designbook/2478/ten-...r-stereotypes/

I'm guilty of "some" of the following.

3. They constantly worry about their car more than their loved ones

This could be said about a lot of different automotive fanatics, but Porsche 911 owners are definitely among the worst. They constantly fret about any imperfection in the paint, what motor oil to use, finding shady spots to park in the summer, fixing any imperfections in the interior, washing and waxing the car two or three times a week so they can see their reflection on the body panels, etc. If you were to try to sit on the fender of their car (which isn't advisable) you would slide right off.

chuck911

Its comforting I guess to pretend Porsche is doing this for the same reasons they've always used in developing the 911. Comforting, but not true. Simply because, cool charts aside, there's a lot more to driving performance than a set of numbers. But hey, anyone believes otherwise, GM has your car. Be my guest.

The rest of us know a big part of driving is responsiveness. Will Porsche be able to deliver that in an all-turbo 911 lineup? Sure they will. Its just that they would be delivering it better and cheaper if left to their own devices. Obviously. Since if it were otherwise, if the turbo really were in fact and all things considered the better choice, well then they'd have been doing it long before now, wouldn't they? I mean they would have to be pretty stupid to be sitting there on the one thing that would really give them a leg up on the competition, but oh no we're not gonna do that, we're gonna wait until bureaucrats dictate regulations that force us to do it!

Yeah. Keep on pretending its all science and data.

997rs4.0

Haha, thanks for posting that, very true about corvette owners...

Back to topic, Don't you find it strange to do such a drastic change in a mid life facelift for the 991? I know I might make to big of a deal about it, but it feels like the 991.1 (last N/A) could go down like the 993 in the history books (last air cooled) and the 991.2 more like the 996?