No More Manual Gear Box for The 911?
11-01-2013, 08:04 PM
#122
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I once drove along with a friend of mine's 997. An automatic.
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
11-01-2013, 08:08 PM
#123
Three Wheelin'
The comments on the differences between Euro and American drivers are interesting. For whatever reason, Americans long ago voted with their wallets for cars with automatic transmissions. Were they voting then for PDK? No. There was no PDK back then. Automatic meant hydraulic automatic. Driving enthusiasts- those who've had professional instruction anyway- understand that driving is really about controlling weight transfer in order to maximize traction available for acceleration, cornering and braking. (Don't take from me? Take it from Bob Bondurant then http://books.google.com/books?id=l7s...ansfer&f=false ) The hydraulic transmission ruins driving by ruining the drivers ability to control weight transfer. It turns a driving machine into an appliance. It totally ruins a car. But that is what Americans decided they wanted.
Most of them, anyway. A minority enjoy performance enough to appreciate the extra control a manual provides. Even then, only a tiny minority of these people understand WHY it is that the manual is so much better. They simply associate manual with performance, and that is that.
Europeans voted the other way. Driving manuals means they are all accustomed to excellent control of weight balance. The are also accustomed to having a manual in every car. They do not connect the manual with performance, its just something all cars have. The manual holds no special romantic appeal. Shifting is just one of those things you have to do in order to drive.
Which I think is the more correct and impartial assessment. Just look at all the comments made in this thread. The vast majority of the MT lovers love it not because of its performance but in spite of it. They are so out of objective reasons they even resort to fantasies of collectibility and tales of loitering teenagers. Meanwhile the Euros matter of factly note that PDK is really just a MT you don't have to work to shift, which is great, and get on with it.
Hate to say it but on this one at least the Euros are way ahead of us. But we'll get there. Even if Porsche has to drag some of us kicking and screaming into the future.
Most of them, anyway. A minority enjoy performance enough to appreciate the extra control a manual provides. Even then, only a tiny minority of these people understand WHY it is that the manual is so much better. They simply associate manual with performance, and that is that.
Europeans voted the other way. Driving manuals means they are all accustomed to excellent control of weight balance. The are also accustomed to having a manual in every car. They do not connect the manual with performance, its just something all cars have. The manual holds no special romantic appeal. Shifting is just one of those things you have to do in order to drive.
Which I think is the more correct and impartial assessment. Just look at all the comments made in this thread. The vast majority of the MT lovers love it not because of its performance but in spite of it. They are so out of objective reasons they even resort to fantasies of collectibility and tales of loitering teenagers. Meanwhile the Euros matter of factly note that PDK is really just a MT you don't have to work to shift, which is great, and get on with it.
Hate to say it but on this one at least the Euros are way ahead of us. But we'll get there. Even if Porsche has to drag some of us kicking and screaming into the future.
11-01-2013, 08:10 PM
#124
Three Wheelin'
I once drove along with a friend of mine's 997. An automatic.
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
I've read a quote on a forum somewhere, that was short and simple, but full of truth. It went along these lines: "If you prefer MT over PDK, you are either driving too slow or in a straight line !"
11-01-2013, 08:17 PM
#125
I once drove along with a friend of mine's 997. An automatic.
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
It was slightly raining.
The light turned green and he floored it.
And that's it.
A bit of wheelspin and the rest was figured out by the car. "Isn't this a great car" he said...
Not my idea of "fun" and "involvement".
The rest of the pro-PDK'ers comes down to being lazy (and/or old).
YMMV...
You can choose whatever you prefer. And while I drive the PDK, there are always times when I miss the MT, admittedly those times are rare now. I get it. The tactile feel, involvement or whatever is a valid point.
But the pro-PDKers are not all lazy or old. In fact the laziest of the bunch if you want to stereotype, IMO (and it is wrong to do so) are the turbo drivers who drive a MT , putter around and stay in the same gear for a million miles, the torque that they have available pretty much making it easier to drive a MT as a daily in traffic with zero fun factor.
11-01-2013, 08:59 PM
#126
I can't believe we are still debating about this, is the op still around, are is he playing all of us like fools..
I personally don't believe this because there is no fact.
Here is an example that can be applied to this.
BMW in 2011 made the 1M coupe, only availble in manual no dct/auto...
produce I think over 6,000 and all sold out as soon as its available, there was huge mark up at some dealers and even now you can't get a used one near MSRP!! And yes its a manual, over 6,000 sold worldwide. Its far from being pretty or powerful or super fast, its comparable to a cayman s few times.
The point is manual will live on, purist or not, most of us still like like to drive them and BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, and even Audi knows it. I don't mention Ferarri or Lambo because they are few and most owners have them as garage queens and use them as dog and pony show.
Pdk or not, there are still majority of us buyers that would like to shift our own gear, and I don't know what the percentage of that is, but Porsche do. So BACK to the original post, and now there is no hard data or fact that they will get rid of manual, so can we all stop this and put it to rest. There is enough threads out there about this debate.
I personally don't believe this because there is no fact.
Here is an example that can be applied to this.
BMW in 2011 made the 1M coupe, only availble in manual no dct/auto...
produce I think over 6,000 and all sold out as soon as its available, there was huge mark up at some dealers and even now you can't get a used one near MSRP!! And yes its a manual, over 6,000 sold worldwide. Its far from being pretty or powerful or super fast, its comparable to a cayman s few times.
The point is manual will live on, purist or not, most of us still like like to drive them and BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, and even Audi knows it. I don't mention Ferarri or Lambo because they are few and most owners have them as garage queens and use them as dog and pony show.
Pdk or not, there are still majority of us buyers that would like to shift our own gear, and I don't know what the percentage of that is, but Porsche do. So BACK to the original post, and now there is no hard data or fact that they will get rid of manual, so can we all stop this and put it to rest. There is enough threads out there about this debate.
11-01-2013, 09:04 PM
#127
C'mon rpilot, you got to admire the chutzpah of someone able to say the only ones in favor of cutting edge new technology are a bunch of lazy old-timers. Patrick Long? Nevermind...
But seriously, what you said earlier: "You focus on the balance of the car and a lot more things while driving in a spirited manner instead of getting all your thrills from the three pedal dance."
Lots of road tests (world's best drivers car, etc) emphasize that the 991 may not quite be the fastest, but it is the one that (fill in the blank) communicates, flows down the road, etc. all various ways of saying what you said, focus on the balance of the car. And here's the thing: whether we call it focusing on the balance, or appreciating the cars responsiveness, awareness, whatever, the cold hard fact of the matter is we have less of it while waving one arm and one leg around at the same time. PDK does indeed free your mind and body to focus on what really matters, car balance and control.
But seriously, what you said earlier: "You focus on the balance of the car and a lot more things while driving in a spirited manner instead of getting all your thrills from the three pedal dance."
Lots of road tests (world's best drivers car, etc) emphasize that the 991 may not quite be the fastest, but it is the one that (fill in the blank) communicates, flows down the road, etc. all various ways of saying what you said, focus on the balance of the car. And here's the thing: whether we call it focusing on the balance, or appreciating the cars responsiveness, awareness, whatever, the cold hard fact of the matter is we have less of it while waving one arm and one leg around at the same time. PDK does indeed free your mind and body to focus on what really matters, car balance and control.
11-01-2013, 09:36 PM
#128
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And here's the thing: whether we call it focusing on the balance, or appreciating the cars responsiveness, awareness, whatever, the cold hard fact of the matter is we have less of it while waving one arm and one leg around at the same time.
You feel the car with an MT, with a PDK you're just steering.
With an MT you feel the gears, the power, the rush, the "wanting the next gear". With a PDK you feel nothing (or at least, I feel nothing)
Choosing an MT is the same as the reason why people buy Porsche. They're not the fastest, not the cheapest ($/HP), not this, not that, it's about the feeling you get.
An MT also isn't the fastest (anymore), but it's about the feeling you get.
You_don't_get_that_feeling_from_a_PDK!
No matter how hard they try to push it down my throat.
Homey don't play that sh*t
Every time I hear someone raving about how convenient a PDK (or an automatic) is and how comfy and easy and this and that, I think to myself: "The marketingboys got him", I shed a tear for a fallen comrade and I take my MT for a spin
11-02-2013, 12:18 AM
#133
Three Wheelin'
C'mon rpilot, you got to admire the chutzpah of someone able to say the only ones in favor of cutting edge new technology are a bunch of lazy old-timers. Patrick Long? Nevermind...
But seriously, what you said earlier: "You focus on the balance of the car and a lot more things while driving in a spirited manner instead of getting all your thrills from the three pedal dance."
Lots of road tests (world's best drivers car, etc) emphasize that the 991 may not quite be the fastest, but it is the one that (fill in the blank) communicates, flows down the road, etc. all various ways of saying what you said, focus on the balance of the car. And here's the thing: whether we call it focusing on the balance, or appreciating the cars responsiveness, awareness, whatever, the cold hard fact of the matter is we have less of it while waving one arm and one leg around at the same time. PDK does indeed free your mind and body to focus on what really matters, car balance and control.
But seriously, what you said earlier: "You focus on the balance of the car and a lot more things while driving in a spirited manner instead of getting all your thrills from the three pedal dance."
Lots of road tests (world's best drivers car, etc) emphasize that the 991 may not quite be the fastest, but it is the one that (fill in the blank) communicates, flows down the road, etc. all various ways of saying what you said, focus on the balance of the car. And here's the thing: whether we call it focusing on the balance, or appreciating the cars responsiveness, awareness, whatever, the cold hard fact of the matter is we have less of it while waving one arm and one leg around at the same time. PDK does indeed free your mind and body to focus on what really matters, car balance and control.
11-02-2013, 12:50 AM
#135
Three Wheelin'
Must be some magical stick you got there ! All those feelings ...