991 Carrera engine fire
04-23-2013, 04:00 PM
#91
Trucker
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hello friend!
In the spring of 1996 my 1993 RSAmerica had an engine fire. It was not caused by me. It turned out to be electrical, harness, ... It melted most everything in the back of the car. (I vaguely remember some sort of harness issue back then...)
I had it towed to my home and it sat under a tarp on my driveway. My insurance company (Farmers) sent their guy over and he looked at it to make sure that it was not a fraud case and that was the end of the deal. They "totaled" the car and gave me a check for fair value and towed it away. I even had the option of buying it back, but I had my eyes on another car so I moved on...I did not have to deal with PCNA, Herr Piech, forensic experts, etc.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU...and sorry for this trouble. Glad that you were not hurt!
In the spring of 1996 my 1993 RSAmerica had an engine fire. It was not caused by me. It turned out to be electrical, harness, ... It melted most everything in the back of the car. (I vaguely remember some sort of harness issue back then...)
I had it towed to my home and it sat under a tarp on my driveway. My insurance company (Farmers) sent their guy over and he looked at it to make sure that it was not a fraud case and that was the end of the deal. They "totaled" the car and gave me a check for fair value and towed it away. I even had the option of buying it back, but I had my eyes on another car so I moved on...I did not have to deal with PCNA, Herr Piech, forensic experts, etc.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU...and sorry for this trouble. Glad that you were not hurt!
04-23-2013, 11:02 PM
#92
Nordschleife Master
I know. You think it pisses you off? It's interesting to note that you guys are living this saga in real time. I understand that these issues have a process and it takes a certain amount of time to unwind the details, but now it's becoming ridiculous.
The forensics lab completed their study last Friday. I was notified by my insurance adjuster that "no foreign material" was identified by the gas chromatograph and microscope. At least in the samples that the investigator collected. In other words, the rag left in the engine space theory was tossed.
So, after those findings the "hot potatoe" is now back into the hands of PCNA. A PCNA Legal representative contacted my insurance and indicated that they were not sure that the proper samples were studied and have scheduled ANOTHER inspection for this Thursday. The PCNA field rep., forensics expert, representative of the oil change dealer, and 2 insurance reps are expected to be on scene. I hope to be there as well, essentially to rattle the cage if nothing else.
Throughout this series of studies and inspections I have tried to remain patient and neutral. Sometimes I pine for the car, others I don't even want it. Now, however, as it approaches a month with the burned car sitting in the dealer's back lot with a Jaguar cover over it, (they don't want it identified as a P car)I'm losing patience.
The forensics lab completed their study last Friday. I was notified by my insurance adjuster that "no foreign material" was identified by the gas chromatograph and microscope. At least in the samples that the investigator collected. In other words, the rag left in the engine space theory was tossed.
So, after those findings the "hot potatoe" is now back into the hands of PCNA. A PCNA Legal representative contacted my insurance and indicated that they were not sure that the proper samples were studied and have scheduled ANOTHER inspection for this Thursday. The PCNA field rep., forensics expert, representative of the oil change dealer, and 2 insurance reps are expected to be on scene. I hope to be there as well, essentially to rattle the cage if nothing else.
Throughout this series of studies and inspections I have tried to remain patient and neutral. Sometimes I pine for the car, others I don't even want it. Now, however, as it approaches a month with the burned car sitting in the dealer's back lot with a Jaguar cover over it, (they don't want it identified as a P car)I'm losing patience.
04-24-2013, 12:18 AM
#93
Drifting
So, after those findings the "hot potatoe" is now back into the hands of PCNA. A PCNA Legal representative contacted my insurance and indicated that they were not sure that the proper samples were studied and have scheduled ANOTHER inspection for this Thursday. The PCNA field rep., forensics expert, representative of the oil change dealer, and 2 insurance reps are expected to be on scene. I hope to be there as well, essentially to rattle the cage if nothing else.
04-24-2013, 02:26 PM
#94
Just unacceptable. Between your story and the one on 6-speed where a loyal customer has an IMS failure on his way to trade an 05 997 that's 16 days out of CPO coverage for a brand new 991 http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...rade-991s.html and gets the same treatment I have to learn to love another brand. I have no tolerance for arrogance and PCNA is neck deep in it.
I got a great phone call this morning from Bob Simon at Bergstrom Porsche. All my fears regarding this ordeal are gone. Porsche is paying 100% parts and labor. I'll pick up my 991S this weekend. Thanks to everyone for their support and encouragement. It has been a bit of a stressful week to say the least.
My decision now is that they are offering an extended comprehensive warranty (Nationwide) which will cover my new car for 3 years beyond the manufacturer's 4 year for $4950. Warranty would transfer to new owner if I sold or I could cancel at anytime and be refunded prorated amount. Thoughts? I do plan to keep this car for a while, but I have said that about my last three cars too. I mean it this time
My decision now is that they are offering an extended comprehensive warranty (Nationwide) which will cover my new car for 3 years beyond the manufacturer's 4 year for $4950. Warranty would transfer to new owner if I sold or I could cancel at anytime and be refunded prorated amount. Thoughts? I do plan to keep this car for a while, but I have said that about my last three cars too. I mean it this time
05-08-2013, 05:12 AM
#95
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You people have probably figured that the burned white Carrera has dropped off the face. On the contrary, the sad little car has been authorized for rebuild by my insurance carrier and at this moment sits inside the shop at the Bellevue dealer being probed and prodded leading up to a repair estimate.
My last missive was on 4/23. Since that time the vehicle was once again examined by PCNA, a professional forensics company, and an insurance expert. As you recall, the last word was "no foreign material in evidence that could have led to combustion". PCNA, upon getting this result, immediately flew their field rep. back up to Seattle (2nd time) to determine if the forensics pro had examined the same remnants that had earlier convinced him that "something " has been introduced that led to the fire.
This time wrenches and hammers were applied to remove the burned out intake system, strip away melted wiring harnesses and drop the exhaust system. Other samples were collected and 100s of close-ups taken. It has once again been determined that rag material was left in the engine space, worked its way down to the exhaust system and caught. I myself saw one sample and even though totally burned, the weave and TPI pattern in the charred shard was consistent with a common shop rag.
So, back into the lap of the South Puget Sound oil change dealer and their insurance carrier. They dodged phone calls from myself and my insurance carrier for days before I finally made enough noise that my insurance company said simply, "get it fixed". I'll let them fight with subrogation from Zurich, the dealer's insurance.
I expect an "estimate" from the Bellevue dealer and a top notch auto rebuild shop later this week. We'll proceed from there.
I must say that the Bellevue dealer has been great through this whole process and have done the Porsche name proud. Aside from originally selling me the car they owed me nothing. They have been attentive, patiently dealing with inspections, shoving the car around their maintainance space, placing it on lifts, supplying labor. Their service guys have kept me informed throughout.
As the saga continues I will keep you informed. We are now T+39 days from the fire. The beautiful cabrio is still charred and cold, but something is finally happening.
My last missive was on 4/23. Since that time the vehicle was once again examined by PCNA, a professional forensics company, and an insurance expert. As you recall, the last word was "no foreign material in evidence that could have led to combustion". PCNA, upon getting this result, immediately flew their field rep. back up to Seattle (2nd time) to determine if the forensics pro had examined the same remnants that had earlier convinced him that "something " has been introduced that led to the fire.
This time wrenches and hammers were applied to remove the burned out intake system, strip away melted wiring harnesses and drop the exhaust system. Other samples were collected and 100s of close-ups taken. It has once again been determined that rag material was left in the engine space, worked its way down to the exhaust system and caught. I myself saw one sample and even though totally burned, the weave and TPI pattern in the charred shard was consistent with a common shop rag.
So, back into the lap of the South Puget Sound oil change dealer and their insurance carrier. They dodged phone calls from myself and my insurance carrier for days before I finally made enough noise that my insurance company said simply, "get it fixed". I'll let them fight with subrogation from Zurich, the dealer's insurance.
I expect an "estimate" from the Bellevue dealer and a top notch auto rebuild shop later this week. We'll proceed from there.
I must say that the Bellevue dealer has been great through this whole process and have done the Porsche name proud. Aside from originally selling me the car they owed me nothing. They have been attentive, patiently dealing with inspections, shoving the car around their maintainance space, placing it on lifts, supplying labor. Their service guys have kept me informed throughout.
As the saga continues I will keep you informed. We are now T+39 days from the fire. The beautiful cabrio is still charred and cold, but something is finally happening.
05-08-2013, 07:43 AM
#96
You people have probably figured that the burned white Carrera has dropped off the face. On the contrary, the sad little car has been authorized for rebuild by my insurance carrier and at this moment sits inside the shop at the Bellevue dealer being probed and prodded leading up to a repair estimate.
My last missive was on 4/23. Since that time the vehicle was once again examined by PCNA, a professional forensics company, and an insurance expert. As you recall, the last word was "no foreign material in evidence that could have led to combustion". PCNA, upon getting this result, immediately flew their field rep. back up to Seattle (2nd time) to determine if the forensics pro had examined the same remnants that had earlier convinced him that "something " has been introduced that led to the fire.
This time wrenches and hammers were applied to remove the burned out intake system, strip away melted wiring harnesses and drop the exhaust system. Other samples were collected and 100s of close-ups taken. It has once again been determined that rag material was left in the engine space, worked its way down to the exhaust system and caught. I myself saw one sample and even though totally burned, the weave and TPI pattern in the charred shard was consistent with a common shop rag.
So, back into the lap of the South Puget Sound oil change dealer and their insurance carrier. They dodged phone calls from myself and my insurance carrier for days before I finally made enough noise that my insurance company said simply, "get it fixed". I'll let them fight with subrogation from Zurich, the dealer's insurance.
I expect an "estimate" from the Bellevue dealer and a top notch auto rebuild shop later this week. We'll proceed from there.
I must say that the Bellevue dealer has been great through this whole process and have done the Porsche name proud. Aside from originally selling me the car they owed me nothing. They have been attentive, patiently dealing with inspections, shoving the car around their maintainance space, placing it on lifts, supplying labor. Their service guys have kept me informed throughout.
As the saga continues I will keep you informed. We are now T+39 days from the fire. The beautiful cabrio is still charred and cold, but something is finally happening.
My last missive was on 4/23. Since that time the vehicle was once again examined by PCNA, a professional forensics company, and an insurance expert. As you recall, the last word was "no foreign material in evidence that could have led to combustion". PCNA, upon getting this result, immediately flew their field rep. back up to Seattle (2nd time) to determine if the forensics pro had examined the same remnants that had earlier convinced him that "something " has been introduced that led to the fire.
This time wrenches and hammers were applied to remove the burned out intake system, strip away melted wiring harnesses and drop the exhaust system. Other samples were collected and 100s of close-ups taken. It has once again been determined that rag material was left in the engine space, worked its way down to the exhaust system and caught. I myself saw one sample and even though totally burned, the weave and TPI pattern in the charred shard was consistent with a common shop rag.
So, back into the lap of the South Puget Sound oil change dealer and their insurance carrier. They dodged phone calls from myself and my insurance carrier for days before I finally made enough noise that my insurance company said simply, "get it fixed". I'll let them fight with subrogation from Zurich, the dealer's insurance.
I expect an "estimate" from the Bellevue dealer and a top notch auto rebuild shop later this week. We'll proceed from there.
I must say that the Bellevue dealer has been great through this whole process and have done the Porsche name proud. Aside from originally selling me the car they owed me nothing. They have been attentive, patiently dealing with inspections, shoving the car around their maintainance space, placing it on lifts, supplying labor. Their service guys have kept me informed throughout.
As the saga continues I will keep you informed. We are now T+39 days from the fire. The beautiful cabrio is still charred and cold, but something is finally happening.
05-08-2013, 08:02 AM
#97
glad things are moving in any direction. it always seemed fishy to me the fire occurred after the oil service. chance of something catching fire due a porsche issue would be my last guess.
why doesnt larson just step up to the plate , give you a new car and write it off. the amount of money for a new car will be small compared to the total money wasted fixing and all the insurance/lawyers cost. larson could sell the vehicle for parts on ebay to recoop some $.
why doesnt larson just step up to the plate , give you a new car and write it off. the amount of money for a new car will be small compared to the total money wasted fixing and all the insurance/lawyers cost. larson could sell the vehicle for parts on ebay to recoop some $.
05-08-2013, 09:49 AM
#98
Burning Brakes
I talked about this to a friend who has been a longtime Porsche mechanic, on race teams, local independent garages, and two of the three dealers in town. Shouldn't be any surprise, but all of the investigations were basically to point blame on human error rather than factory mistake if at all possible, and it looks like they succeeded.
I am in the camp that totally believes that any damaged car can be brought back to its original condition if enough money is thrown at it (read the articles about how Rowan Atkinson's McLaren F1 was fixed if you don't believe me), so I hope for you that's done. If you're planning on keeping the car a long time, hopefully this will someday be just a blip on the radar in your enjoyment of it. If you're not planning on keeping it long, make sure that diminished value is brought into the equation, although it's not a given despite what many will say. Chin up pilotmcc, your baby will be back in your driveway good as new before you know it.
I am in the camp that totally believes that any damaged car can be brought back to its original condition if enough money is thrown at it (read the articles about how Rowan Atkinson's McLaren F1 was fixed if you don't believe me), so I hope for you that's done. If you're planning on keeping the car a long time, hopefully this will someday be just a blip on the radar in your enjoyment of it. If you're not planning on keeping it long, make sure that diminished value is brought into the equation, although it's not a given despite what many will say. Chin up pilotmcc, your baby will be back in your driveway good as new before you know it.
05-08-2013, 02:09 PM
#99
Damn. I would beg for a new car. My 911 ran over a piece of unavoidable debris on the freeway, cracked the bumper ever so slightly and dented the aluminum piece that surrounds the luggage compartment. It took about 3 months for the repairs by a VERY reputable and expensive body shop (structural parts take awhile to ship). Total cost was about 15K and that was without a rental car (insurance paid for it of course).
I'm telling you, try to have them total it. You'll be waiting half a year waiting on repairs.
I'm telling you, try to have them total it. You'll be waiting half a year waiting on repairs.
05-08-2013, 02:56 PM
#100
Diminished value is excluded in some policies, at least in California. This is something that crept into the fine print about a decade ago and insurers use it as a "good will" factor more than a balance of costs influencing the decision to repair.
In this case, I agree with the comment that even a minor bump can lead to $15K, so this car is surely looking at $50K assuming the engine and transmission suffered no harm when the engine stopped. I'd be concerned that the engine has ingested something. I'd be concerned that a lot of components were subjected to fire and fire suppression. There's also the problems that arise when a Cabriolet is left partially open for 30+ days. It's probably a $130K car that would wholesale as-is for maybe $30K, so the insurer will be budgeting on spending up to say $70K to repair (including off-road costs like a loaner if that's in the policy) and I'm afraid that's probably ample budget to fully dismantle and rebuild the car even with a new engine. Sorry to say it bluntly, but I wouldn't want it after all that and I wouldn't want to be tasked with being the customer while those repairs take the next three months and then there's the various quality issues that can drag on. Depending upon the policy terms and conditions for replacement value, the owner has the right to expect full compensation for insurance of a one year old 3100 mile car or a new replacement car of equivalent spec, and I don't think months off road and a car rebuilt from the parts department is adequate compensation.
In this case, I agree with the comment that even a minor bump can lead to $15K, so this car is surely looking at $50K assuming the engine and transmission suffered no harm when the engine stopped. I'd be concerned that the engine has ingested something. I'd be concerned that a lot of components were subjected to fire and fire suppression. There's also the problems that arise when a Cabriolet is left partially open for 30+ days. It's probably a $130K car that would wholesale as-is for maybe $30K, so the insurer will be budgeting on spending up to say $70K to repair (including off-road costs like a loaner if that's in the policy) and I'm afraid that's probably ample budget to fully dismantle and rebuild the car even with a new engine. Sorry to say it bluntly, but I wouldn't want it after all that and I wouldn't want to be tasked with being the customer while those repairs take the next three months and then there's the various quality issues that can drag on. Depending upon the policy terms and conditions for replacement value, the owner has the right to expect full compensation for insurance of a one year old 3100 mile car or a new replacement car of equivalent spec, and I don't think months off road and a car rebuilt from the parts department is adequate compensation.
05-08-2013, 06:46 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
I agree with Carrera GT 100%. Diminished value is a big deal in a case like this, don't let Larson blow you off. If it takes a civil suit to recover, then that may actually be worthwhile.
Glad to hear that Barrier is coming through with good service/support. That's the dealer I'm buying from.
Who's doing the restoration work? Queen City?
Glad to hear that Barrier is coming through with good service/support. That's the dealer I'm buying from.
Who's doing the restoration work? Queen City?
05-08-2013, 10:01 PM
#102
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's good news and bad. Good to see progress of a sort, bad to think they'd repair it rather than total it and cash you out. I would much rather be ordering a new replacement. I'm sure they'll rebuild it to 100%, but still, it was a very new car. Which brings me to the question of who did the oil change? It was not at a Porsche dealer? I'm not following. I think the first oil service is free at the dealer (mine was, at 5K miles for the 991S) and I'm not clear on why you'd use a third party unless you're a long way from the dealer.
05-08-2013, 10:16 PM
#103
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Carrera GT 100%. Diminished value is a big deal in a case like this, don't let Larson blow you off. If it takes a civil suit to recover, then that may actually be worthwhile.
Glad to hear that Barrier is coming through with good service/support. That's the dealer I'm buying from.
Who's doing the restoration work? Queen City?
Glad to hear that Barrier is coming through with good service/support. That's the dealer I'm buying from.
Who's doing the restoration work? Queen City?
05-08-2013, 10:37 PM
#105
Rennlist Member
Cool. I'm not (yet) familiar with Barrier's service department but QC has done superb work for me in the past. I don't know of a better shop anywhere in the area.