Anyone else hesitant on 991 prices?
12-25-2012, 02:58 AM
#106
Yep i'd just sit back and relax and not get sucked in to P car sales mans hype. My bet is on there being a lot of the next persons pain$ to select from in the not so distant future where these 991's are concerned. If you're asking yourself questions, the smart money is on a low K TT that's seen the hit.
Happy holidays!
Happy holidays!
12-25-2012, 04:27 AM
#107
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good on you Arthur!
I recall my last C2S. It was 220K plus options which came in at 255K by the time id loaded it up properly. No sense doing things in half measure needless to say these cars really should be coming with all this stuff in as standard anyway given the huge ticket. A 991 optioned the same worked out at @ 330+ so thats' a full 100K more. I mean how does that work? It's called greed and being arrogant toward your loyal customer base....nothing more, nothing less. The same way as the resale values wind up after 4 years....leaving you gutted like a fish.
Take the disparity between GTR's pricing and the TTS (not that i'd personally want a GTR....yuck). 170K new, vs 450K for a new TTS. If Garys' calculations were correct that'd mean the GTR was being sold at a massive loss!
Funny how these two cars aren't all that far apart in pricing over in the US yet out here they are worlds apart. Someone is making a truckload and it isn't just the Govt. We are all just being played (and treated) as fools by Porsche.
Merry Xmas!
Edit. You mentioned earlier what you knew about how Porsche are struggling in Melbourne to sell these 991's due to the price. Well to add to that, i've had numerous chats with Porsche owners since its release and, 2 of the 3 dealers here in Sydney and they all sing the same mantra;"Porsche has completely lost the plot with the pricing and have lost total touch with market reality". Nobody i've spoken to yet can believe the ridiculousness and most are really outraged. Now that's not a good sign when you have not only your customers think you are total rip off merchants but also your appointed dealers. That's not good. Once you have dissension in your own ranks that's a very very bad sign. As a dealer it must be incredibly frustrating trying to uphold a belief that even they know is total BS. Take the parts prices here as another example. It's as if Porsche believes no one is internet savvy or is aware of online shopping. They are basically calling their customers stupid idiots as well as their dealers. No wonder so many Porsche guys buy online from the states now. I mean why wouldn't you. It would have to be costing them big time in lost parts revenue here and i was told just the other day they are putting the prices up again! Thats insanity. I feel sorry for the dealers being left to contend with a such a discontent market and client base. They are lucky they have the cayenne which is selling really well. I was told if i wanted a 991 to just make an offer because they will most likely consider any discount of15K upwards whereas with the Cayenne it's basically full retail, take it or leave it. I told them forget it and they'd need to knock 50K off for starters, and realistically 80 to 100. Between PAG and the Aus importer they have made a real mess here and really need to correct the pricing on these 991 cars and salvage the very grubby mess they have created amongst their dealer network and client base. It's not good. Imagine whats going to happen a few years from now when the guys that have stumped up over 300+ K for a Carrera are having to take 125 for a trade. I recall my trade of 135 on my C2S with 30K on the odo in mint cond fully optioned. I wasn't impressed i can tell you. This turbo will prove to be another bomb on resale. How many times can buyers continue to do this.....? Loyalty is being tested.
I recall my last C2S. It was 220K plus options which came in at 255K by the time id loaded it up properly. No sense doing things in half measure needless to say these cars really should be coming with all this stuff in as standard anyway given the huge ticket. A 991 optioned the same worked out at @ 330+ so thats' a full 100K more. I mean how does that work? It's called greed and being arrogant toward your loyal customer base....nothing more, nothing less. The same way as the resale values wind up after 4 years....leaving you gutted like a fish.
Take the disparity between GTR's pricing and the TTS (not that i'd personally want a GTR....yuck). 170K new, vs 450K for a new TTS. If Garys' calculations were correct that'd mean the GTR was being sold at a massive loss!
Funny how these two cars aren't all that far apart in pricing over in the US yet out here they are worlds apart. Someone is making a truckload and it isn't just the Govt. We are all just being played (and treated) as fools by Porsche.
Merry Xmas!
Edit. You mentioned earlier what you knew about how Porsche are struggling in Melbourne to sell these 991's due to the price. Well to add to that, i've had numerous chats with Porsche owners since its release and, 2 of the 3 dealers here in Sydney and they all sing the same mantra;"Porsche has completely lost the plot with the pricing and have lost total touch with market reality". Nobody i've spoken to yet can believe the ridiculousness and most are really outraged. Now that's not a good sign when you have not only your customers think you are total rip off merchants but also your appointed dealers. That's not good. Once you have dissension in your own ranks that's a very very bad sign. As a dealer it must be incredibly frustrating trying to uphold a belief that even they know is total BS. Take the parts prices here as another example. It's as if Porsche believes no one is internet savvy or is aware of online shopping. They are basically calling their customers stupid idiots as well as their dealers. No wonder so many Porsche guys buy online from the states now. I mean why wouldn't you. It would have to be costing them big time in lost parts revenue here and i was told just the other day they are putting the prices up again! Thats insanity. I feel sorry for the dealers being left to contend with a such a discontent market and client base. They are lucky they have the cayenne which is selling really well. I was told if i wanted a 991 to just make an offer because they will most likely consider any discount of15K upwards whereas with the Cayenne it's basically full retail, take it or leave it. I told them forget it and they'd need to knock 50K off for starters, and realistically 80 to 100. Between PAG and the Aus importer they have made a real mess here and really need to correct the pricing on these 991 cars and salvage the very grubby mess they have created amongst their dealer network and client base. It's not good. Imagine whats going to happen a few years from now when the guys that have stumped up over 300+ K for a Carrera are having to take 125 for a trade. I recall my trade of 135 on my C2S with 30K on the odo in mint cond fully optioned. I wasn't impressed i can tell you. This turbo will prove to be another bomb on resale. How many times can buyers continue to do this.....? Loyalty is being tested.
If I wasnt receiving the discount on the 991 I ended up getting, I would not of been taking delivery of it in January. The average discount given out there was 2-3% if you were lucky. I ended up ordering a 348K MSRP (for our US friends) optioned 991S Cab. At that price it would have stayed at the dealer. There was no hope in hell I would hand over that. And this is what makes me even more mad with the whole pricing. If I was to buy the car at 348K that is a whopping 200K difference between the US and Australia. It is seriously nuts. When my wife offered them 299K for floor stock they laughed at us (this car had far less options on it too ie Adaptive Sports Plus, PSE, wheels etc) . In the end I ordered from the only other dealer in Melbourne who happens to be also an independent and not a factory dealership.
Anyways, if the TT wasn't around the corner I would buy one but once I drove the 991 I knew I preferred the interior and finish of the 991. The power was great but seriously not a major factor unless I was going to track the car. It is nice to have that ingear acceleration but I am maturing, sort of......
It looks like Porsche world wide needs to really rethink their strategy, not only in Australia. At this rate they will alienate their customer base to competing brands. Lets not kid ourselves the 991 is a brilliant car but it certainly is knocking on the door of opposition brands quite rapidly, especially in the US market.
For now I am still a Porsche driver but, I nearly ended up in a F430 for nearly 100K less than the 991. Totally nuts but the wife totally refused to get in it.....
12-25-2012, 08:35 PM
#108
speed21, I struggled with the purchase of the 991, not from a financial perspective but with the level of the cost. In March 2010 I had the option to pick up a 2010 TT for 345K. Stupidly at the time I said no. Knowing that the 991 was coming I thought I would wait. Well 2 years later I am paying 315K for the 991S. Dont get me wrong, I do believe the 991 is a trim level above, well above the 997 but for pure performance you cannot beat the TT. I do believe the 997 series is taking and will take a bath. Not to say that the 991 wont either. Whether I lose 100K on a 991 or the 997 it is no different but I do believe the 991 will lose it slightly slower now.
If I wasnt receiving the discount on the 991 I ended up getting, I would not of been taking delivery of it in January. The average discount given out there was 2-3% if you were lucky. I ended up ordering a 348K MSRP (for our US friends) optioned 991S Cab. At that price it would have stayed at the dealer. There was no hope in hell I would hand over that. And this is what makes me even more mad with the whole pricing. If I was to buy the car at 348K that is a whopping 200K difference between the US and Australia. It is seriously nuts. When my wife offered them 299K for floor stock they laughed at us (this car had far less options on it too ie Adaptive Sports Plus, PSE, wheels etc) . In the end I ordered from the only other dealer in Melbourne who happens to be also an independent and not a factory dealership.
Anyways, if the TT wasn't around the corner I would buy one but once I drove the 991 I knew I preferred the interior and finish of the 991. The power was great but seriously not a major factor unless I was going to track the car. It is nice to have that ingear acceleration but I am maturing, sort of......
It looks like Porsche world wide needs to really rethink their strategy, not only in Australia. At this rate they will alienate their customer base to competing brands. Lets not kid ourselves the 991 is a brilliant car but it certainly is knocking on the door of opposition brands quite rapidly, especially in the US market.
For now I am still a Porsche driver but, I nearly ended up in a F430 for nearly 100K less than the 991. Totally nuts but the wife totally refused to get in it.....
If I wasnt receiving the discount on the 991 I ended up getting, I would not of been taking delivery of it in January. The average discount given out there was 2-3% if you were lucky. I ended up ordering a 348K MSRP (for our US friends) optioned 991S Cab. At that price it would have stayed at the dealer. There was no hope in hell I would hand over that. And this is what makes me even more mad with the whole pricing. If I was to buy the car at 348K that is a whopping 200K difference between the US and Australia. It is seriously nuts. When my wife offered them 299K for floor stock they laughed at us (this car had far less options on it too ie Adaptive Sports Plus, PSE, wheels etc) . In the end I ordered from the only other dealer in Melbourne who happens to be also an independent and not a factory dealership.
Anyways, if the TT wasn't around the corner I would buy one but once I drove the 991 I knew I preferred the interior and finish of the 991. The power was great but seriously not a major factor unless I was going to track the car. It is nice to have that ingear acceleration but I am maturing, sort of......
It looks like Porsche world wide needs to really rethink their strategy, not only in Australia. At this rate they will alienate their customer base to competing brands. Lets not kid ourselves the 991 is a brilliant car but it certainly is knocking on the door of opposition brands quite rapidly, especially in the US market.
For now I am still a Porsche driver but, I nearly ended up in a F430 for nearly 100K less than the 991. Totally nuts but the wife totally refused to get in it.....
Sounds like you are a new car buyer much as i am but 991TT's price (may) change that. I've found that after owning a turbo it's made it hard to shift back to a regular Carrera, and more than just in a psychological sense. Once you've owned a turbo you'll now exactly what i mean. Its a phenomenal car for a DD.... so much more to the car than any Carrera i've driven to date....especially after a few minor tweaks/mods. Mine's due replacement now being 4 years old but its still very low at 22k so im happy to hold it at least until the 991tt is available. I normally only ever hold a car for 3 to 4 years but after reviewing the 991 purchase, as excited as I was about the car it didn't evoke the senses in the same way my turbo does. And then there was that absurd price hike in what is a very unhealthy high end car market. I couldn't figure out why they did that. It's not as if the car justified the price being just a Carrera. Also, having taken a substantial bath eveytime I've changed a Porsche (with exception of the 993 which worked quite well) I was less than convinced the new 991 would hold its value to in line with Porsches expectations. Ive heard their assurances before and they never materialise....in fact each bath has proven to be bigger, not less. The 997tt will prove to be the same i'm sure.
I'm not saying i wasn't very impressed with 991 as it was indeed very impressive but in an odd way it felt less exciting than i expected it to be. I can't put my finger on it but i suspect it has something to do with how the car drives so smooth in general driving situations. It's very luxury and less sporty IYKWIM. Not that it's a bad thing but it did feel like I had to be really leaning in to the car to be extracting the same level of satisfaction the Turbo gave pretty well all the time. If you aren't a particularly skilled driver the new 991 is definitely far more forgiving. In a sense it goes fast too easily yet you dont really feel it at all untill you check your speedo. Now one could say the same about the Turbo as it gathers pace so lightning fast but the turbo give more of a seat of the pants sense of vulnerability in the process which definitely stirs the senses more i find. On the other hand the new car is very reassuring but its maybe too reassuring, and that makes you really want to step it up all the time which (may) wind you up in (more) trouble in general DD situations. It's a distinct cut above in trim finish and interior design and has those sexy revised new rear tailamps but it all just wasn't enough for me to make the shift out of the Turbo. If i was in a 997 Carrera it would be a different story entirely....but then the price (yikes!) was new GT3.2 money. Like yourself im happy with the Porsche product and it fits my bill. I don't like making a full blown show of myself everytime i jump into a motor vehicle so a Ferrari or lambo is off my list at this point in time.
Anyway im sure you'll love the 991. It's a great car but its ridiculous price presents a compelling reason for any buyer to consider good low K 997 Turbo, GT3 and GT2 opportunities. There is just so much more to these cars for the money and if you have the time to sit and wait there are some extremely low K examples that are steadily making their way onto the used car market. I guess as 991TT's release approaches, owners of these cars (that have hardly driven them) are seeing their way clear and while i agree with you these cars will also see a drop as time progresses the main drop has already been taken by the first owner.....unlike the 991 which will lose significance and value once the 991GT and Turbo cars are released.
Last edited by speed21; 12-25-2012 at 09:02 PM.
12-26-2012, 07:17 AM
#109
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
See Aurthur has hit some of my thoughts, For 991 money Porsche has opened the door to lots of other options including Gallardo's and 430 (all previously loved) but Man I am died in the wool porsche but for the money now and the wisdom you all have imparted I am going to look at everything Aston DB9s to all other competitors. And the take or leave it attitude for a 5 time buyer like me doesnt sit well either.
12-26-2012, 10:41 AM
#110
The main reasons behind these rises are 1) China and, 2) China, and 3) the huge success of the Cayenne. Porsche now no longer relies on sales of 911 as their bread and butter including from countries such as US. Those that want these new 911's and Boxsters now have to have a good hard think whether they really want to pay the stupid prices and accept the inevitable acid bath on these cars. Rijowysocks is right in saying the moment a 991 car rolls off the showroom there goes 60k. And out here at 320 it'd be more like there goes 100k at least. I'm told by very reliable sources these 991's here are hardly moving. You just don't see them on the road at all, unlike the 997's which are out and about. Prices here are now 320K + for a mildly optioned S which is totally outrageous. 2nd and 3rd time Porsche buyers have had enough of this nonsense. For those $ there are far better performance (997) options like a good used GT2, Turbo or 3RS sub 250. I recall when the C2S was 250K (which we thought was way OTT) for a nicely optioned car and then when .2 came out it was like 270K....but now at 320 for a 991 Carrera? No way, forget it, they can stay in the showroom....i'll keep my money and my 997 and it seems a lot of usual Porsche buyers share the same sentiment. The new boxster looks to be another example of a car that has now become so overpriced it is also struggling to move out the door. Crazy. Maybe if/when China falls over they might get real.
Porsche reported 63% increase in China sales, year on year. Porsche exports to China account for around 25% of global sales !!
.......
12-26-2012, 12:28 PM
#111
Race Car
In general, the the bigger and fancier the sedan or SUV, the higher the profit margin, and I believe that in the US at least the Panamera and Cayenne outsell the sports cars something like 10-1. According to my dealer, they have to check a watch list every time a someone wants to buy a Cayenne or Panamera because so many are syndicated buys that get shipped to China.
12-26-2012, 01:05 PM
#112
In general, the the bigger and fancier the sedan or SUV, the higher the profit margin, and I believe that in the US at least the Panamera and Cayenne outsell the sports cars something like 10-1. According to my dealer, they have to check a watch list every time a someone wants to buy a Cayenne or Panamera because so many are syndicated buys that get shipped to China.
12-26-2012, 04:34 PM
#113
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm definitely hearing you on Porsche strategy and we are not alone. They are playing a dangerous game imho.
Sounds like you are a new car buyer much as i am but 991TT's price (may) change that. I've found that after owning a turbo it's made it hard to shift back to a regular Carrera, and more than just in a psychological sense. Once you've owned a turbo you'll now exactly what i mean. Its a phenomenal car for a DD.... so much more to the car than any Carrera i've driven to date....especially after a few minor tweaks/mods. Mine's due replacement now being 4 years old but its still very low at 22k so im happy to hold it at least until the 991tt is available. I normally only ever hold a car for 3 to 4 years but after reviewing the 991 purchase, as excited as I was about the car it didn't evoke the senses in the same way my turbo does. And then there was that absurd price hike in what is a very unhealthy high end car market. I couldn't figure out why they did that. It's not as if the car justified the price being just a Carrera. Also, having taken a substantial bath eveytime I've changed a Porsche (with exception of the 993 which worked quite well) I was less than convinced the new 991 would hold its value to in line with Porsches expectations. Ive heard their assurances before and they never materialise....in fact each bath has proven to be bigger, not less. The 997tt will prove to be the same i'm sure.
I'm not saying i wasn't very impressed with 991 as it was indeed very impressive but in an odd way it felt less exciting than i expected it to be. I can't put my finger on it but i suspect it has something to do with how the car drives so smooth in general driving situations. It's very luxury and less sporty IYKWIM. Not that it's a bad thing but it did feel like I had to be really leaning in to the car to be extracting the same level of satisfaction the Turbo gave pretty well all the time. If you aren't a particularly skilled driver the new 991 is definitely far more forgiving. In a sense it goes fast too easily yet you dont really feel it at all untill you check your speedo. Now one could say the same about the Turbo as it gathers pace so lightning fast but the turbo give more of a seat of the pants sense of vulnerability in the process which definitely stirs the senses more i find. On the other hand the new car is very reassuring but its maybe too reassuring, and that makes you really want to step it up all the time which (may) wind you up in (more) trouble in general DD situations. It's a distinct cut above in trim finish and interior design and has those sexy revised new rear tailamps but it all just wasn't enough for me to make the shift out of the Turbo. If i was in a 997 Carrera it would be a different story entirely....but then the price (yikes!) was new GT3.2 money. Like yourself im happy with the Porsche product and it fits my bill. I don't like making a full blown show of myself everytime i jump into a motor vehicle so a Ferrari or lambo is off my list at this point in time.
Anyway im sure you'll love the 991. It's a great car but its ridiculous price presents a compelling reason for any buyer to consider good low K 997 Turbo, GT3 and GT2 opportunities. There is just so much more to these cars for the money and if you have the time to sit and wait there are some extremely low K examples that are steadily making their way onto the used car market. I guess as 991TT's release approaches, owners of these cars (that have hardly driven them) are seeing their way clear and while i agree with you these cars will also see a drop as time progresses the main drop has already been taken by the first owner.....unlike the 991 which will lose significance and value once the 991GT and Turbo cars are released.
Sounds like you are a new car buyer much as i am but 991TT's price (may) change that. I've found that after owning a turbo it's made it hard to shift back to a regular Carrera, and more than just in a psychological sense. Once you've owned a turbo you'll now exactly what i mean. Its a phenomenal car for a DD.... so much more to the car than any Carrera i've driven to date....especially after a few minor tweaks/mods. Mine's due replacement now being 4 years old but its still very low at 22k so im happy to hold it at least until the 991tt is available. I normally only ever hold a car for 3 to 4 years but after reviewing the 991 purchase, as excited as I was about the car it didn't evoke the senses in the same way my turbo does. And then there was that absurd price hike in what is a very unhealthy high end car market. I couldn't figure out why they did that. It's not as if the car justified the price being just a Carrera. Also, having taken a substantial bath eveytime I've changed a Porsche (with exception of the 993 which worked quite well) I was less than convinced the new 991 would hold its value to in line with Porsches expectations. Ive heard their assurances before and they never materialise....in fact each bath has proven to be bigger, not less. The 997tt will prove to be the same i'm sure.
I'm not saying i wasn't very impressed with 991 as it was indeed very impressive but in an odd way it felt less exciting than i expected it to be. I can't put my finger on it but i suspect it has something to do with how the car drives so smooth in general driving situations. It's very luxury and less sporty IYKWIM. Not that it's a bad thing but it did feel like I had to be really leaning in to the car to be extracting the same level of satisfaction the Turbo gave pretty well all the time. If you aren't a particularly skilled driver the new 991 is definitely far more forgiving. In a sense it goes fast too easily yet you dont really feel it at all untill you check your speedo. Now one could say the same about the Turbo as it gathers pace so lightning fast but the turbo give more of a seat of the pants sense of vulnerability in the process which definitely stirs the senses more i find. On the other hand the new car is very reassuring but its maybe too reassuring, and that makes you really want to step it up all the time which (may) wind you up in (more) trouble in general DD situations. It's a distinct cut above in trim finish and interior design and has those sexy revised new rear tailamps but it all just wasn't enough for me to make the shift out of the Turbo. If i was in a 997 Carrera it would be a different story entirely....but then the price (yikes!) was new GT3.2 money. Like yourself im happy with the Porsche product and it fits my bill. I don't like making a full blown show of myself everytime i jump into a motor vehicle so a Ferrari or lambo is off my list at this point in time.
Anyway im sure you'll love the 991. It's a great car but its ridiculous price presents a compelling reason for any buyer to consider good low K 997 Turbo, GT3 and GT2 opportunities. There is just so much more to these cars for the money and if you have the time to sit and wait there are some extremely low K examples that are steadily making their way onto the used car market. I guess as 991TT's release approaches, owners of these cars (that have hardly driven them) are seeing their way clear and while i agree with you these cars will also see a drop as time progresses the main drop has already been taken by the first owner.....unlike the 991 which will lose significance and value once the 991GT and Turbo cars are released.
