DBYT

Speed,
Don't know where you get your information for Porsche prices in China but you are way off the mark in thinking that you can get Porsches for a song there. The pricing there is at least 2x US prices and after all the hidden costs involved with registration, it gets pretty high. The same applies to the rest of Asia where prices in those markets make the Australian prices look down right reasonable. For example, a base 991 in Singapore with minimal options retails at US$500k.

Australia, as a market, in the last 10 years has ballooned into an over priced market place. Almost everything in that market is now over priced or over valued.

carcommander

There is not really an entry level new Ferrari. I own a 991 C2S and a 458. The 991 does not outperform it. Have you read any tests? I also owned a 997 TT at the same time as the 991. So far the 991 has had 5 campaigns and has been in the shop for 2 weeks. The 458 nada. Most people are clueless about actuall Ferrari ownership they repeat what they heard.

I think the 991 is a better car than yhe 997TT, so I sold the TT. I an anxiously awaiting the new TT. Anything past a 6 year old Toyota is just something you want.

rodsky

Maybe he was referring to the California? Which is technically the entry level Ferrari.

917k

Well, mate, and I *am* a mate: you're no idiot. Clearly you have been successful enough to pay nosebleed Oz prices - but then, let's have someone from Singapore or HK weigh in on that point. It's inequitable but ... they sell every car. Oz now has the highest *median* wealth in the world on a per cap basis [Source: Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2012]. Oz has outgrown all other countries in the OECD over the last 20 years. Consequently Aussies have had a growth of wealth that is unsurpassed for the last 10 years or so (leaving aside some small Mid-East enclaves; very much an aside: Oz has much higher tax rates ... Supply-siders take note, growth is not entirely a function of marginal tax rates).

So while I agree that Aussies are shafted in the price of these cars, the wherewithal is clearly there. Many punters in Pt Piper, Toorak etc who can pay for a 911.

Meanwhile in the US we had the greatest financial collapse since the 1930s. But then, if one can purchase a 911 here you have done better than average folks since 2007. A 911 is clearly an indulgent purchase and while it's annoying that prices are high -especially in Oz etc - it's not that you are an 'idiot'. No, you choose to spend your hard-earned money as you see fit, and it's very annoying that prices are so expensive there relative to the US.

Each market's dynamics is distinct and the pricing reflects that reality. Don't like it, then 2 options:

(1) Don't buy - be more value conscious
(2) Move countries where you can 'arb' prices [some do when they become frustrated, but then the offset are property taxes and health care]

All this being said, the pricing [Downunder] is 'cheeky'. They do so, because they can. And the lux tax reflects both the local ideology as well as the ability to extract a consumption tax. The US is relatively unbalanced in its tax basis in that nearly 50% of revenues derive from income; in Oz in income taxes are ~ 30% of revs, then there's consumption tax which includes the lux tax (~ 10% revs). Pay to consume is the message. The US could learn from that

simsgw

I really don't want to debate government policy. Seriously I don't. But my math bone twitches at bad arithmetic. The duty on my $140k C2S Cabrio would be essentially $60k. That is 42%, not 5%. (Ignore 60/140. I used the real numbers to calculate the percentage.)

Moreover, I have to point out that the customs document cited applied to the general case of importation of goods for resale. That is not always the same as importation by the dealer network of a manufacturer of automobiles. I don't assert a difference, I just suspect one. If you could have my Cabrio by paying the Porsche factory $140k in Europe and then bringing it back home and 'only' paying $60k in taxes, instead of paying $300 plus to a dealer, then it's safe to say you would be discussing that option.

Granted, Porsche is under no obligation to sell cars at the same price in all markets. You may be right that they hope for an extra U$100k in margin in your market. In which case, they would charge you the price for the Australian market even if you used European Delivery.

It is... ironic? entertaining? sad? that an Italian is over on 6speedonline expressing his delight at learning that he can get a basic S for around a $100k here in the states because he would pay twice that in Europe.

Gary

P_collector

Hi Carcommander,

Although I do not share your opinion often..this time I agree. The 458 is cheap to own with regard to running costs, has almost no issues, in fact I dont know any. The only thing you cannot really do with it is track it for hours like a GT3 or GT2.

To say that a 991S can beat a 458 is for me the joke of the year..the 997.2turbo S clearly smokes the best 911S..that I know..

speed21

Just to be clear. Never said China has cheap Porsches like the US. I said the US does. What i meant was that China is where the growth is now and If China didn't have such a high demand for these cars then Porsche would have to think twice what they are doing down here. Prices in Aus are twice UK/EU and nearly triple US. This talk i hear that Aussies can afford the prices due to the strength of our economy is nonsense. The average Australian is doing it harder than ever before. The wealth in this country is predominately being generated by the mining industry that is raping the country. How many Aussies work in the Mines? Not 20 million. Porsche is Profit gouging to a level unprecedented and i agree with what ArthurK says 100%!

I recall seeing Lamborhini Aus going broke just recently. One of their special model Gallardo cars sold under the hammer for 430K at Auction and was nearly a 700K car. Where were all the "rich" Aussies then? If Aussies are as able to pay the high prices as what is being assumed here then why didn't that car fetch its 700K? I mean it was a special one of a kind. I'll tell you. It's because Aussies in general are getting fed up with the BS from these rip off merchants. The worlds mindset is changing with paying stupid prices for cars. Listen to yourselves. Moaning about paying 140K for a car that used to be 80. Sure you guys have a point, as we do down here. But some of you US guys are making me laugh.

chuckbdc

997.2turbo S? Well I should hope so. It has another what, 130 HP and 130 ft lbs of torque over a 991S, for an additional $60k or so? They do the quarter mile in the high 10s, aka FAST and running away from any S for sure. It is the only 997 I would consider against a 991, so I drove one and found I preferred the 991 S for its feel, looks and quality. Maybe it was the 4 wheel feel or the sound dampening of the turbos, but besides the incredible rush of straightway speed, it did not intrigue me- besides having some miles and still costing too much more.

All that said. Had I the space and the $$, I would have a 458 in a heartbeat to go with my 991 not instead, for performance, looks and every other thing about it. Red please, with a tan interior.

The Turbo S was produced specifically to cover the GTR (at around a $60k premium). See below.

speed21

Case in point. Take the GTR as an example. If the importer is getting taxed to death as some of you are imagining then why is it the GTR can be bought new for 170K and a TTS 450K. Where is the parody. Look at your own pricing on these two cars. Much closer.

I don't know which is responsible, the importer or PAG, but whoever it is has become so drunk in their arrogance toward the customers here they will drown in one day if they are not careful. A GTR for 170 and a TTS for 450K? C'mon. It isn't 280K better.

parkerfe

At less than $200k, the California is Ferrari's current entry level car. And, I have read tests and the 991C2S does out handle and turns a quicker lap time on the Nurburgring . FYI, I have owned 6 Ferraris over the past two decades, two V8s and four V12s, including my current BB512i, and they all required more maintenance at a greater cost than any of my three Porsches over that same time frame. And, I have driven my 991C2S as a DD for 12k+ miles since June with the only issues so far being two flat tires and a defective XM antenna that caused poor reception.

parkerfe

Most Ferraris are driven a fraction of the miles per year as the average Porsche. If driven equal miles per year, the cost to own a Ferrari is much higher than a Porsche.

speed21

The 991 is a newer car and i agree there is always the crowd that needs to be seen in the latest and greatest. That will never change. But as so far as sheer street cred goes, to the average punter they just see the 991 as another Carrera and most don't even distinguish the two models (991 from 997). On the other hand the 997TT is a true supercar, and, in everyones eyes. Not too many cars want to mess with a TT. In the Carrera, you're always under the pump.

Then from an everyday driving perspective there is the reality the 997TT blows the 991S to the weeds and, looks more expensive as a car in the process. It can even be said the 997 has a more connected feel to it....which I personally find it has, even though the 991 is a brilliant car in every way. So it's kinda funny when i see someone in a 991 knowing just how much they paid for it, and, for what. LOL.

I take my hat off to anyone swapping out a 997TT for a 991. It's a very brave move. You've really got to "love it" (and I mean really got to love it) to do that or, be one of those guys that has plenty of tear up $ to be seen in the latest and greatest. If it were changing out a Carrera for a newer Carrera then I can (maybe) see the sense in that, although again when you look a the price it's virtually new Turbo money and, you are also talking more money than what a good used low K turbo or GT2 would cost you. So the logic is once again defeated. No matter which way you look at it the 991 is simply way overpriced for what it is.....and lacks the presence against it's better performing predecessors.

DBYT

Maybe my grasp of the English language is slightly skewed but I read the above and thought I would correct your misperception about the Chinese market.

I do agree with your sentiment about the OP's post about the cost of the new 991. Instead of taking his 997 purchase as an aberration due to various market factors and recognising that he got the deal of the century on his 997, he is complaining about having to pay normal market price for the 991.

In objective terms, 140k for a highly specc'ed Porsche is quite reasonable, considering the quality and specs of the car you get for the money. In my opinion, Porsches are about the best bang for buck sports car you can get in the market.

ArthurK

The fact that Australia has had growth over the last 10 years or that there is more disposable income does not make it right.

My gripe is not the tax system lets get that right. I understand and am willing to pay the ludicrous amounts of tax on the income I earn. This is my choice and where I chose to live. What I don’t like is what Porsche Cars Australia is doing to the local market. I am under no illusion that I have a right to be complaining about spending 315K and crying poor over it. I just believe it should be a fairer and more level playing field. I understand there needs to be a "premium" for a smaller market but make it reasonable. Why should the car cost more than the RHD UK model?

A Euro MD was once asked "How can you charge what you charge for you cars?" the answer was, "because we can and they still buy them". Really what type of attitude is that? Similarly PCA is now reflecting on their pricing and realising they have gone too far. They are second guessing where they have positioned the car and price bracket. Sales are slow.

I would be quite content if the price of the car was within 30% of the US market without the local taxes. Don’t get me wrong it’s not only Porsche that is doing this it’s all lux euro brands. $750K for a 458 well they can keep that one.......

At the end of the day it is what it is and as you rightly pointed out it’s my decision as to whether I hand over the cash or not. As a sucker for the brand I have and I will continue to do so.

speed21

Agree. I was a commer away from separating my comment. No biggy. Appologise for the confusion.

And on the 140k for a highly spec'd 991? I'd pay that in a heartbeat. But then I'm an Aussie lol. For a lot of you guys your options are unlimited with the small dollars you have become so used to paying. I mean where else on the planet could you buy a brand new TTS for 160K......and that my friend is what makes the highly optioned 991 so unpalatable at 140 even in your own country. I can see what old guy is on about. Everyone around the world is asking the same question....

As I said earlier, with BM, MB lowering prices accepting the global market realities, you've got Porsche going the other way and, they are now a mass manufacturer unlike say lambo, buggati, ferrari and so forth. I call it greed, arrogance, or a combination of both. Sure there will always be a percentage that goes with the flow, but the mainstream is thinking.