simsgw

Let me add another perspective, Paul.

First, your lack of discount. As you probably know, I got the same 3% discount on the 991 C2s Cab I just bought. I didn't expect more from the way I bought it, but I wouldn't expect much more using any other method. What I was doing is what you are doing: buying the latest version of a car that survives global depressions and wanting to pick exactly the configuration we want. You want the just-this-month C4S and I wanted the Cab. Wait a year and either one will be readily available and a lot cheaper. I didn't want to wait a year, damn it.

I wanted a 991 Cab essentially configured exactly as I got it. Using the dealer database of built-cars on any dealer's lot or en route from Germany, the same fleet salesman you're using found only six cars for me to consider. And four of those were only "fairly close" matches to what I wanted to own. Would going out of state have done me any good? With only two cars in the North American market I wanted to own, and those brand new versions just arriving in this market, how many percentage points would I have gotten? Negotiation is a matter of leverage. In car buying, your only leverage is the walk out. With only two cars in the entire country that satisfy my personal desire, where's my leverage?

The classic "small dealer in Omaha" isn't going to have access to the car I want. Not until the demand at Premiere dealers, like ours, is satisfied. With whom do I negotiate? The 'other' one showing up in the database? The one the dealer in Florida doesn't want to let my dealer buy from him? He will perceive a call direct from the end-buyer as a sign that the configuration is very desirable, which it was of course, so he is going to give me an extra percent? Maybe. Maybe not. It was too much trouble for me to worry about a couple of thousand. I got the car I wanted, not any of the configurations Esie showed me on the lot. So I paid an extra twenty. Big deal to a Honda buyer, but to us?

You fix all that and save forty grand by buying a configuration some optimistic sales manager pencilled six months ago that turned out to be less popular than he hoped. Let it sit for even two weeks with multiple buyers glancing down the option list and moving to the next car, and that sales manager starts asking salesmen what isn't selling, so he can amend his future orders. Let six weeks pass and he's telling salemen they can add a couple of percent discount to make the configuration attractive. Let three months pass and you're looking at the units that create the hefty discounts people brag about on forums. [Forae?]

Appearance and gadget options are particularly quick to evaporate that way. Most of mine are in that category and I'll bet my $140k car wouldn't bring $110k tomorrow afternoon. Your options are brand new releases, but mostly not the kind that evaporate in the heat of slow sales. A C4S stays about ten kay above a C2S and so forth.

Configuration. You are comparing a car you bought off the lot to a special configuration. The car you want, just as I wanted mine. Your configuration has three newly released aspects: AWD, Power Pack, and something else that escapes me right now. I remember noting it when you described your build. Only Premiere dealers get those items until their demand has been satisfied. That dusty car lot in Omaha won't have any for six months.

You speak of a lightly used Ferrari or Lambo or Aston as an alternative to a new 991. Setting aside brand preferences, consider something I noticed just this morning reading the latest Road & Track. I own a 991 C2S Cabrio, you rode in it. You are forecasting a build about as expensive as mine: $140k. But you are putting a lot of your money into different options, more power basically. You're configuring a car with performance and handling like your past Turbos. Right?

Well, consider this. My Cabrio, which weighs... without looking it up, I think 120 lbs more than the coupe. My Cabrio, configured as an overweight fun car, not a serious performance monster, will slam dunk a Ferrari 430 and embarrass a ZR-1, along with miscellany like a Viper for God's sake. I haven't taken it to the track since finishing the break-in, but I already know it handles better than my 997S and I could put a lap time on any of those three cars with my 997. This car should eat them alive. A 'fun' configuration.

You are adding expensive power to a car that in my 'luxo' version, my older-guy configuration will trounce the world's best from ten years ago. Don't expect to satisfy your need-for-speed urges with a used car, even in the category where they measure miles traveled with tick marks on the owner's manual. A used Ferrari isn't as fast as what I'm driving, let alone what you're configuring. That's all I'm saying.

Put the price 'increase' from your previous Porsches in that context, Paul. Maybe you don't need the power kit, but you want it. We don't buy Porsches because we need them, so that's fine. Just don't overlook what you're buying. It will thump a TT from only two models back and keep up with a 997 TT-S in almost any scenario. I didn't care about ultimate performance and still ended up with a car that nearly does that.

$140k buys a lot of car in the U.S. Don't lose track of what you're buying between the order sheet and your checkbook.

Gary

TTCarrera

Does he mean Trunk Monkey?

simsgw

I don't know, but I'll bet a lot of forum members here would like to know where he was told he could get a Porsche built inside a month. I couldn't get mine that quick and it already was built and on a ship for CONUS. Aren't projections running three to four months right now?

Gary

chuckbdc

Well, it is a lot of money, but I cannot imagine having buyer's remorse with the build in question, assuming his driveway is large enough. It may be faster than yours too, Gary.

simsgw

I am willing to grant that it's a reasonable hypothesis that a possibility exists that Paul's extra thirty horsepower might make his car potentially faster. With the right tires. And best quality gas. When the moon is in the seventh house.

At least, if he remembers to sacrifice a live rooster in the dark of the night before coming to the track day.

Gary

rijowysock

i would never pay 140 for a 991.. i paid 80k for mine brand new and still barely got out of it for that, your 140k C4S is worth 100 the day it arrives..

i would go a lil less crazy on the options.. hell the TT and GT3 are coming within a year!... spend the money for those and they'll give it all back..

simsgw

It depends on what you want from the car. For me, the investment value is nil. I buy options for myself, not future owners. Well, the entire car obviously, but options are the most ephemeral aspect.

What I could get for my car today means nothing. I just used the example of its probable next-day-after-sale value to illustrate how gizmos and luxuries like natural leather evaporate in the used market, and for that matter on the dealer's lot if they sit too long without selling. That's why dealers rarely order a heavily optioned unit. We were surprised to find two examples of one so fully equipped even in a search of all the 991 Cabs already built in the first six weeks. I suspect the two dealers both knew of a cadre of likely buyers in their market, a couple of whom would be likely to buy given the chance to see an example.

You can't even get a stripper of my configuration for less than $100k you know. The base price for a C2S Cab with linoleum floor mats and oilcloth seats is $105k. Admittedly, I added enough to the base price to buy what many people consider a 'luxury' car, like the Acuras. But I didn't have to go wild. It adds up fast at $5k for this, $6k for that, and $4k for the other. You won't see many on a dealer lot optioned to $140k, but cars ordered from Germany will often be in that range I'd guess.

Gary, who may be mis-remembering the linoleum

speed21

The main reasons behind these rises are 1) China and, 2) China, and 3) the huge success of the Cayenne. Porsche now no longer relies on sales of 911 as their bread and butter including from countries such as US. Those that want these new 911's and Boxsters now have to have a good hard think whether they really want to pay the stupid prices and accept the inevitable acid bath on these cars. Rijowysocks is right in saying the moment a 991 car rolls off the showroom there goes 60k. And out here at 320 it'd be more like there goes 100k at least. I'm told by very reliable sources these 991's here are hardly moving. You just don't see them on the road at all, unlike the 997's which are out and about. Prices here are now 320K + for a mildly optioned S which is totally outrageous. 2nd and 3rd time Porsche buyers have had enough of this nonsense. For those $ there are far better performance (997) options like a good used GT2, Turbo or 3RS sub 250. I recall when the C2S was 250K (which we thought was way OTT) for a nicely optioned car and then when .2 came out it was like 270K....but now at 320 for a 991 Carrera? No way, forget it, they can stay in the showroom....i'll keep my money and my 997 and it seems a lot of usual Porsche buyers share the same sentiment. The new boxster looks to be another example of a car that has now become so overpriced it is also struggling to move out the door. Crazy. Maybe if/when China falls over they might get real.

clembo

Old Guy - I agree with many of your points. I love my 991, it is an amazing imrovement over the 997. The biggest downside of the car is the "new" price, it is much higher, I hard a hard time justifying it as well. Like you I bought a 997.2S at a great deal (new, $21K off), but those days may not come around again.

If you can afford it, and it appears you can. Then just decide if you really want it. We all know that every Porsche is a compromise in some manner, with the 991, the price may be the largest compromise, as the car itself is outstanding. Why wait for deals to happen, like is too short. If you have the cash, health, and large enough driveway, buy it, and don't look back.

On the day that we all take our last breath, I doubt we'll be wondering if we paid too much for our toys. If we live good lives, help others, work hard and achieve success, then we should be able to enjoy one of life's true spoils, a new Porsche.

Merry Christmas.

speed21

At 140k id personally have no problem at all justifying the spend but its what you're used to paying depending on which country you live. At 140K these are dream prices for us out here. But I understand old guy saying he cant stomach 140 when 80 was the money before. The 991 is good but 320K or 140K good? Nope....cant see it. Nor do most folks especially when you can buy a good 997 turbo, Gt2, 3 etc for less which will pants any 991 on the street....and look as good or better in the process.

Nicoli35

Not trying to be contrary here, we all love our Porsches. I feel the 991 is so much better looking and driving than the previous models that there is no comparison here. I realize you are invested in your model - and understand your support of said model, but really..the 991 is far and away in a class by itself.

It's just that good. I found an especially well-optioned C2S which fit my needs perfectly on the local dealer's lot, but was absolutely ready to plunk down 5K deposit for a 140k C4S.

chuckbdc

It took becoming an old guy, but eventually I learned that dollars are the wrong measure of the investment potential of a toy.

rickg87

I have a different take on this. Buy a non S 991. I've always been a 911 guy. I still own my 97 C4S with 282 HP. In 06 I bought an F430 with 500 HP, then went to an 07 GT3 which I loved but sold it after 3 years to build a Cayman S race car which I race in NASA and PCA.
Last year I put together an 03 996 (always hated the look) but wanted a cheaper track car to hack around in and teach my kids to drive a stick. This car has upgraded shocks and sways and is lowered, all in, 30-35K. The car is AWESOME to drive. Very fast and carves up the road like nobodies business.
So much fun and did I say fast. We don't need to get caught in HP. 350HP in that car is all you need.
When do we use the max 0-60 capabilities of the car. Lately I'm in the camp of lower HP and use more of the engine from corner to corner. And save 14K. Also go light on the options and just drive the s... out of it.

simsgw

Well said.

G

chuckbdc

Excellent argument for a 981 S.