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I did as you and drove for a couple of weeks with the supressed codes then swapped back. It def felt different, but not sure it was "better", it could be that I have driven my 991 for 100k miles with the standard steering and so it felt more natural. I may swap back again to see how I feel about it.
Interesting. I think you're the first person to tell me that they didn't think it was an improvement. Did you take it to Angeles Crest?
991.1 owner here and I'm excited to see people making progress on steering feel! I think an important aspect that hasn't been discussed too much here is how alignment factors in.
A GT3 is going to run more negative camber and less toe in than the lesser trims. And possibly wider front tires. People saying the steering feels lighter under load using the GT3 map tells me the EPS is actually working harder, compensating for the additional expected steering load. Removing Power Steering Plus aside, I don't think you're necessarily making the steering "better" without also going down the rabbit hole of improving the front end mechanically. Don't underestimate the importance of a good performance alignment, and unfortunately you won't get close to even a factory GT3 spec without replacing components.
A shop I trust nearby did my non-SPASM C2 and it's much better for sure, but I don't think adding more EPS boost is what I'm looking for. Less, if anything. Still, excited to watch this and see what people figure out. And if you like the change and you're happy as-is, that's cool -- but at least get a performance alignment to make it that much better.
It looks like your car may have previously been aligned with a very heavy person in the driver's seat and your new alignment was done without the weight of a driver.
If you are serious about handling you should always get your car aligned the way you want to drive it. Half a tank of gas, if you are doing corner balancing, with you sitting in the driver's seat.
Originally Posted by squidge
991.1 owner here and I'm excited to see people making progress on steering feel! I think an important aspect that hasn't been discussed too much here is how alignment factors in.
A GT3 is going to run more negative camber and less toe in than the lesser trims. And possibly wider front tires. People saying the steering feels lighter under load using the GT3 map tells me the EPS is actually working harder, compensating for the additional expected steering load. Removing Power Steering Plus aside, I don't think you're necessarily making the steering "better" without also going down the rabbit hole of improving the front end mechanically. Don't underestimate the importance of a good performance alignment, and unfortunately you won't get close to even a factory GT3 spec without replacing components.
A shop I trust nearby did my non-SPASM C2 and it's much better for sure, but I don't think adding more EPS boost is what I'm looking for. Less, if anything. Still, excited to watch this and see what people figure out. And if you like the change and you're happy as-is, that's cool -- but at least get a performance alignment to make it that much better.
991.1 owner here and I'm excited to see people making progress on steering feel! I think an important aspect that hasn't been discussed too much here is how alignment factors in.
A GT3 is going to run more negative camber and less toe in than the lesser trims. And possibly wider front tires. People saying the steering feels lighter under load using the GT3 map tells me the EPS is actually working harder, compensating for the additional expected steering load. Removing Power Steering Plus aside, I don't think you're necessarily making the steering "better" without also going down the rabbit hole of improving the front end mechanically. Don't underestimate the importance of a good performance alignment, and unfortunately you won't get close to even a factory GT3 spec without replacing components.
I do agree that alignment plays a significant role but I think you're underestimating how much of a role the EPS calibration plays.
I posted this on my original thread but listen to what Chris Harris has to say about the EPS software updates (7:39)
I recommend trying the EPS coding before you dismiss the positive impacts it could have to your driving experience. At this point I feel like a used car salesman trying to convince people so I'll just leave it at that.
It looks like your car may have previously been aligned with a very heavy person in the driver's seat and your new alignment was done without the weight of a driver.
If you are serious about handling you should always get your car aligned the way you want to drive it. Half a tank of gas, if you are doing corner balancing, with you sitting in the driver's seat.
You're not wrong, but you also can't corner balance a car on factory non-height adjustable suspension. I have full records back to new and the car had never been aligned. And yeah, I got the car aligned the way I want to drive it -- that was the whole point. I'm an alignment junky after having a track prepped ND2 for a while
I do agree that alignment plays a significant role but I think you're underestimating how much of a role the EPS calibration plays.
Maybe I am, mostly I'm just hoping that whoever is trying the software changes also goes down the rabbit hole of alignment and possibly GT3 LCAs and beyond. I think I'm going to do hardware first, software later. I'm not dismissing it but see it as part of a larger picture.
You're not wrong, but you also can't corner balance a car on factory non-height adjustable suspension. I have full records back to new and the car had never been aligned. And yeah, I got the car aligned the way I want to drive it -- that was the whole point. I'm an alignment junky after having a track prepped ND2 for a while
Maybe I am, mostly I'm just hoping that whoever is trying the software changes also goes down the rabbit hole of alignment and possibly GT3 LCAs and beyond. I think I'm going to do hardware first, software later. I'm not dismissing it but see it as part of a larger picture.
A friend did an alignment on my car and I run about -1.2 Deg front camber and -2.0 rear camber. The steering software does 100x more to improve the feel than the alignment did for me. The stock steering software is straight up bad. It is way too heavy at low speeds and then provides close to zero weight change as you press on abit. The Carrera map intitally suggests it might have some feel though it's heavy weight but the more and more you drive it the more you realize it is competley dead. The first time I switched to GT3 steering it was like getting hit in the face it was so blindingly obvious. The first corner I went around I immediately felt the load on the tire even though I was nowhere close to the limit. The car is so much more engaging to drive at all speeds and to be honest if I had to go back to the stock map I would probably sell the car. I presume the standard Carrera map was developed for the casual guys who like to go fast with zero work on the autobhan but think heavy on center steering = sporty steering feel.
Im sure the Motorsport geometry on the 991.1 GT3 helps but it's not like it is requirement for good steering feel. All the standard water cooled hydroulic steering Porsches like 996, 987, 997 have delicious vibrant steering feel where you instantly feel the load on the tires. Also older BMWs such as regular 3 series from e30-e90 gen have amazing steering feel as well. It is not required to run GT3 or M3 geometry or arms for those cars to have great steering.
A friend did an alignment on my car and I run about -1.2 Deg front camber and -2.0 rear camber. The steering software does 100x more to improve the feel than the alignment did for me. The stock steering software is straight up bad. It is way too heavy at low speeds and then provides close to zero weight change as you press on abit. The Carrera map intitally suggests it might have some feel though it's heavy weight but the more and more you drive it the more you realize it is competley dead. The first time I switched to GT3 steering it was like getting hit in the face it was so blindingly obvious. The first corner I went around I immediately felt the load on the tire even though I was nowhere close to the limit. The car is so much more engaging to drive at all speeds and to be honest if I had to go back to the stock map I would probably sell the car. I presume the standard Carrera map was developed for the casual guys who like to go fast with zero work on the autobhan but think heavy on center steering = sporty steering feel.
Im sure the Motorsport geometry on the 991.1 GT3 helps but it's not like it is requirement for good steering feel. All the standard water cooled hydroulic steering Porsches like 996, 987, 997 have delicious vibrant steering feel where you instantly feel the load on the tires. Also older BMWs such as regular 3 series from e30-e90 gen have amazing steering feel as well. It is not required to run GT3 or M3 geometry or arms for those cars to have great steering.
Well you sound emphatic enough that I'm considering getting set up with PIWIS to try it! I've had cars with good hydraulic steering (993, 335i, 128), so I know what I'm missing in the 991 although it's not the worst EPS I've had either. My point was that the GT3 map was developed along with other variables which lesser trims don't have unless you add them. So if you do everything you'll probably get the best results.
Well you sound emphatic enough that I'm considering getting set up with PIWIS to try it! I've had cars with good hydraulic steering (993, 335i, 128), so I know what I'm missing in the 991 although it's not the worst EPS I've had either. My point was that the GT3 map was developed along with other variables which lesser trims don't have unless you add them. So if you do everything you'll probably get the best results.
you really need to try it.
i don't want to beat a dead horse but when i first bought my 991 i thought the steering was heavy. i went from having an 82 SC and a 95 993 combo to having the 993 and the 991.
the steering on the older 911s is so perfect but the 993 is a bit heavier than the SC was so i assumed the 991s heavy steering is just part of the evolution of the line and i got used to it.
then i saw this thread and tried this out and it is night and day. can't go back. won't go back.
i love this from slo_991: "to be honest if I had to go back to the stock map I would probably sell the car."
Well you sound emphatic enough that I'm considering getting set up with PIWIS to try it! I've had cars with good hydraulic steering (993, 335i, 128), so I know what I'm missing in the 991 although it's not the worst EPS I've had either. My point was that the GT3 map was developed along with other variables which lesser trims don't have unless you add them. So if you do everything you'll probably get the best results.
I think it's a case of better result vs. best results. Of course a car meant for the GT3 profile drives the best...
But if someone can get a better setup than their current one (whether it's 991 or 981) using just a profile change...why not?!?
I did it and I am happy I did. I enjoy the car a lot more!
I think it's a case of better result vs. best results. Of course a car meant for the GT3 profile drives the best...
But if someone can get a better setup than their current one (whether it's 991 or 981) using just a profile change...why not?!?
To further add to this line of thought, I think its worthwhile considering the cost vs benefit. If you don't have an indy or a friend who has their own PIWIS clone, it only costs ~500USD to buy your own and maybe an hour of your time. Not to mention that you can resell the PIWIS module after you're done coding for nearly full price. I offered this in my original 981 thread and I'll offer it here as well. If you're in the Arizona area, I will do the coding for you for free. It'll take me literally 5 minutes now that I've done it before.
Going down the "rabbit hole" of changing the suspension hardware will easily rack you up a bill in the thousands and will probably not give you effect you want on a primarily street-driven car. Track-oriented suspension/alignments are... for the track. You're more likely to make your car worse to drive day-to-day than to get that extra bit of steering feel you're looking for.
To further add to this line of thought, I think its worthwhile considering the cost vs benefit. If you don't have an indy or a friend who has their own PIWIS clone, it only costs ~500USD to buy your own and maybe an hour of your time. Not to mention that you can resell the PIWIS module after you're done coding for nearly full price. I offered this in my original 981 thread and I'll offer it here as well. If you're in the Arizona area, I will do the coding for you for free. It'll take me literally 5 minutes now that I've done it before.
Going down the "rabbit hole" of changing the suspension hardware will easily rack you up a bill in the thousands and will probably not give you effect you want on a primarily street-driven car. Track-oriented suspension/alignments are... for the track. You're more likely to make your car worse to drive day-to-day than to get that extra bit of steering feel you're looking for.
Nothing really beats full suspension upgrades. I have done this coding on my car, and the full tractive R/T with V3, more aggressive alignment Full GT3 front control arms, tie rods and thrust arms as well as monoball camber all around def adds more noticeable effect than just the steering software upgrade, coming from first hand experience. ---Granted that's about $15k in hardware and shop time LOL
06-28-2023, 07:49 PM
