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I can already tell this is going to be a terrible thread.
I sold a C4S and ordered a 4 GTS largely because I wanted to go back to a manual transmission. So clearly I care. But honestly, the PDK people are correct.
Back in the day, "automatic transmission" meant a slushy torque converter. A PDK has the same positive engagement as a manual. Mechanically, it's a manual transmission with electronic controls. More than that, it's two manual transmissions so an incremental shift is ridiculously fast.
You do have substantial control of gear selection if you put a PDK in manual. Not quite as much as I'd like, personally, but there's a world of difference between that and the automatic transmissions of yore which tended to hunt between gears if you were going uphill.
A PDK transmission is much faster than a foot-operated manual. If you think otherwise, you've never seriously driven a PDK, or you're lying to yourself.
Shifting a manual is not brain surgery. Skilled driving is not about engaging the clutch. Bragging about it is like declaring you have elite math skills because you can do addition in your head.
For some of us, there's a visceral enjoyment in a gated shifter. There's nothing wrong with accepting that as the whole argument in favor of a manual. Making up spurious additional reasons is a pretty good sign you're insecure in your love of your manual transmission. Better to confidently accept that it's as personal and meaningless as color preference and move on without trying to justify it as objectively better.
Interesting responses and now it's clear to me why there is confusion. My simple point is best stated by valvefloat991;. If the transmission can shift gears by itself it's an automatic. Black and white to me. I'm not trying to get into what faster or slower...which is clear and undisputed. I'm looking for a 3rd pedal manual 991.2 and I'm surprised by all the ads that advertise manual and end up being pdk.....
I'm surprised by all the ads that advertise manual and end up being pdk.....
Salesmanship. You can't rightfully call a manual car an automatic. But you can stretch the truth and call a PDK car a manual. They are just trying not to exclude a potential buyer.
Yes, hated going through ads before when I was looking for Manual 7spd C2S. I would see ads from dealers say manual then when I look into the pictures I see a freaking PDK. I ended up just going straight to the pictures to see if it's Stick or not, if PDK I move on and don't bother.
For all this time I've been alive, a manual meant at transmission that you would have to manually move the gears 1-5/6/7 using a CLUTCH depending the speed you're going. An automatic is a tranny that shifts automatically for you as long as you have it on "D". PDK to me is simply an automatic that you can put to manual shifting without a clutch then return it back to automatic duty when you feel like it. YES, I've had a PDK car before a Panamera 4S. I'm not even going to get into the whole PDK shifts how many hundreds of a second faster etc... yes that all and good in the track but how many actually drive their cars or have their cars live in the track to see the full benefits of PDK "DAILY"? I rather have fun daily driving my car going manually shifting through the gears my self with a clutch. just my .02
If you are scanning ads for a car, it can matter. With about 10% of modern 911 production being MT, it’s a waste of time to click a link and see a PDK shifter sitting there. I also assume whoever is the seller knows even less than the average salesman about the rest of the car. If they are being intentionally deceptive, that’s strike 4 for anything they sell.
I can already tell this is going to be a terrible thread.
I sold a C4S and ordered a 4 GTS largely because I wanted to go back to a manual transmission. So clearly I care. But honestly, the PDK people are correct.
Back in the day, "automatic transmission" meant a slushy torque converter. A PDK has the same positive engagement as a manual. Mechanically, it's a manual transmission with electronic controls. More than that, it's two manual transmissions so an incremental shift is ridiculously fast.
You do have substantial control of gear selection if you put a PDK in manual. Not quite as much as I'd like, personally, but there's a world of difference between that and the automatic transmissions of yore which tended to hunt between gears if you were going uphill.
A PDK transmission is much faster than a foot-operated manual. If you think otherwise, you've never seriously driven a PDK, or you're lying to yourself.
Shifting a manual is not brain surgery. Skilled driving is not about engaging the clutch. Bragging about it is like declaring you have elite math skills because you can do addition in your head.
For some of us, there's a visceral enjoyment in a gated shifter. There's nothing wrong with accepting that as the whole argument in favor of a manual. Making up spurious additional reasons is a pretty good sign you're insecure in your love of your manual transmission. Better to confidently accept that it's as personal and meaningless as color preference and move on without trying to justify it as objectively better.
This. There is nothing else to say and no other argument.
I was thinking about the manual/PDK comparison this morning before I picked keys (chose the 6sp). After dd in the 991s for a few months, the 3rd pedal is a lot of fun and I'd argue it's more of an ego thing at times (on track) because of the extra involvement, judgement, and skill required. Anyone can drive a PDK near full tilt with little worry of mucking things up. Torque vectoring and such, combined with more advanced nannies help you go faster quicker, and with less skill than in the previous generation. I've taken my PDK to the track twice to see what it like and was thoroughly impressed at how intuitive and fun it is, but I'll still always prefer to row gears and the challenge/reward of that. Now, if I had a GT2/3, 488 or Huracan, the clutch pedal might get dusty.
No offense but this is the idiot perspective. If you really think about shifting and when to shift a PDK or sequential gearbox is the thinking person's choice. You won't ever shift optimally with a manual. You can shift optimally with PDK. If I'm driving for excitement (to use a word other than racing), then keeping the car in the perfect gear for the situation is ideal. You'll find for a given stretch you'll make more shifts with PDK than you would a manual (optimizing rpms), and you can also do things like short shifting coming out of corners where you can't with a manual without upsetting the balance you need to exit the corner under power. So I equate the most efficient use of PDK more like the use of a motorcycle gearbox in that you can manipulate it much more accurately for the sake of efficiency than a manual for which limits control. That's the upside. The downside of PDK is the kick down feature. If I want to short shift under WOT the gearbox may change gears for me when I wouldn't want it to. You have to know the throttle pedal well enough to not press it that hard. PDK also keeps your eyes on the road so your head is only concerned with what gear to be in, not the mechanics of manual shifting. Ultimately there's no argument that manual is better in any way. There's only 1 thing you can do with a manual gearbox that can't be done with PDK and that's blow up the motor. Having said all that, I have both currently and in my 10 Porsches I've owned, I'm split...5 manuals and 5 PDK. Both have virtue but neither is decidedly for idiots (or Monkeys).
Awesome technical explanation, you just forgot to include the feeling that shifting a manual gives you. I drive my Porsche because it makes me feel a certain way, and a manual gearbox is part of that feeling. Sometimes I feel like car makers think drivers are obstacles that shall be overcome with electronics and nannies. To me a PDK is yet another way for Porsche to make the driver less important...
In summary:
1- I couldn't care less about optimal shifting and efficiency, I'm not looking to shave seconds off my date night with my wife.
2- I couldn't care less about keeping track of how many shifts I make.
3- A flappy paddle does not give me the same feeling manual gives me.
4- A PDK car sounds like an auto.
5- I like to use both feet when I drive.
One bad thing about manuals? I can't put my hand on my wife's leg and leave it there...
I know manuals are extinct and soon I'll have to switch, I get it... But in the meantime I believe manuals are more engaging and enjoyable than PDKs.
I was thinking about the manual/PDK comparison this morning before I picked keys (chose the 6sp). After dd in the 991s for a few months, the 3rd pedal is a lot of fun and I'd argue it's more of an ego thing at times (on track) because of the extra involvement, judgement, and skill required. Anyone can drive a PDK near full tilt with little worry of mucking things up. Torque vectoring and such, combined with more advanced nannies help you go faster quicker, and with less skill than in the previous generation. I've taken my PDK to the track twice to see what it like and was thoroughly impressed at how intuitive and fun it is, but I'll still always prefer to row gears and the challenge/reward of that. Now, if I had a GT2/3, 488 or Huracan, the clutch pedal might get dusty.
I started driving manual trannys as a teenager in the 70s and also passed my DMV test in one. In my opinion the PDK is an upgraded auto tranny. Do I care either way, NO! I just love driving my Porsche. I found an interesting article.
If it can shift automatically, it is an automatic.
Hurst and Pontiac described it in 1967... "For her, the usual peace of mind of the automatic transmission plus an extra bit of admiration for "her man" who really wanted a 4-speed standard stick but bought this extra just for her".
I would much rather bang gears with one of these shifters than flappy paddles.
Awesome technical explanation, you just forgot to include the feeling that shifting a manual gives you. I drive my Porsche because it makes me feel a certain way, and a manual gearbox is part of that feeling. Sometimes I feel like car makers think drivers are obstacles that shall be overcome with electronics and nannies. To me a PDK is yet another way for Porsche to make the driver less important...
In summary:
1- I couldn't care less about optimal shifting and efficiency, I'm not looking to shave seconds off my date night with my wife.
2- I couldn't care less about keeping track of how many shifts I make.
3- A flappy paddle does not give me the same feeling manual gives me.
4- A PDK car sounds like an auto.
5- I like to use both feet when I drive.
One bad thing about manuals? I can't put my hand on my wife's leg and leave it there...
I know manuals are extinct and soon I'll have to switch, I get it... But in the meantime I believe manuals are more engaging and enjoyable than PDKs.
I have my flame suit on.
I agree with much of above, but your assertion was that manual gearboxes are more engaging. Not in the pure sense ... not in the least. In the emotional sense you describe then perhaps. To each their own. I know I can drive a PDK with every bit as much engagement and emotion when I want to. PDK driven in automatic has no engagement whatsoever. In fact Porsche has the shift points so low (rpms) that you think you're lugging the motor. Obviously I like changing gears on my own (manually) for the fun of it. But I don't romanticize it. It has its place, and agree one day won't exist anymore. From a visceral point of view, the whole industry is going to hell, and quick. Cars will become as exciting as sewing machines. Racing will lose excitement when the power of all competition can be equalized, and only tires make noise. It will make racing more processional than it already is. So enjoy the noise of gas powered motors and shifting on your own (with foot and hand or finger tips) for as long as you can.
05-03-2019, 12:10 PM
