Thinking of doing a bad thing...
03-22-2019, 01:26 PM
#61
it's tough to like or respect people who call themselves car fans but actually know nothing about cars. not a shot at you but that is what i think about tesla owners... and judging from my PCA chapter, I'm not alone!
03-22-2019, 01:29 PM
#62
Pro
I've spent enough time driving and riding in a model S to know it's a really nice car. The model 3 sounds really great as well. What's new here (for me) is that for the first time I'm seeing car guys who like the ride and experience of the Model 3.
Until now i've really thought of Teslas as fantastic (and fast) appliances - but as cars for people who don't really like to drive.
I'm also aware that in the near future, pure ICE cars just won't be able to deliver the performance that is expected as a baseline. I think my 991.2 C2 will be viewed as a slow car in the near future. So performance cars are going to have to go electric or hybrid.
I love the idea of an EV and will get one soon. I just want one that is engaging to drive - that involves the driver rather than removing the driver from the driving experience.
And I really dislike the interior of the Model 3 - but Audi and Porsche will provide alternatives that suit me.
Until now i've really thought of Teslas as fantastic (and fast) appliances - but as cars for people who don't really like to drive.
I'm also aware that in the near future, pure ICE cars just won't be able to deliver the performance that is expected as a baseline. I think my 991.2 C2 will be viewed as a slow car in the near future. So performance cars are going to have to go electric or hybrid.
I love the idea of an EV and will get one soon. I just want one that is engaging to drive - that involves the driver rather than removing the driver from the driving experience.
And I really dislike the interior of the Model 3 - but Audi and Porsche will provide alternatives that suit me.
03-22-2019, 02:19 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
I have driven the Model 3 and the Model S 85D. The 3 is not fast (is not a slow car by any means) It was a dead pair with Audi A6 C7 3.0T with a piggyback tuned from 0-50mph or so with the 3 having a jump for a sec then my Audi catching up. and i belive it will continue to if we had more room to go. But handling.....is def no 911 and i dont think you can argue much with that statement.
they are def fast off the line....but straight line is all it does.....yes the auto pilot is prob more advance vs. other competitor but the only diff so far that i see is they have the auto lane change feature which the common Honda, toyota, BMW dont have yet. I can tell you my Honda Clarity EV can do 85% of what the Tesla auto drive does for 1/4 of the cost. (auto stop and go in traffic and follow, lane keep and steer (to a degree) etc. but the Honda sense is $1000 (instead of $4000) Now the summon feature is pretty useless and a total gimmick...unless you are constantly getting in and out of a tight parking spot...even then i am not sure how well it will work.
Maybe it is a good car for someone who dont mind spending $50k on a commuter with good some good straight line performance and driviability in general...personally I wouldnt drop that much money on a commuter.....but to each of their own :-)
they are def fast off the line....but straight line is all it does.....yes the auto pilot is prob more advance vs. other competitor but the only diff so far that i see is they have the auto lane change feature which the common Honda, toyota, BMW dont have yet. I can tell you my Honda Clarity EV can do 85% of what the Tesla auto drive does for 1/4 of the cost. (auto stop and go in traffic and follow, lane keep and steer (to a degree) etc. but the Honda sense is $1000 (instead of $4000) Now the summon feature is pretty useless and a total gimmick...unless you are constantly getting in and out of a tight parking spot...even then i am not sure how well it will work.
Maybe it is a good car for someone who dont mind spending $50k on a commuter with good some good straight line performance and driviability in general...personally I wouldnt drop that much money on a commuter.....but to each of their own :-)
03-24-2019, 08:43 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I've spent enough time driving and riding in a model S to know it's a really nice car. The model 3 sounds really great as well. What's new here (for me) is that for the first time I'm seeing car guys who like the ride and experience of the Model 3.
Until now i've really thought of Teslas as fantastic (and fast) appliances - but as cars for people who don't really like to drive.
Until now i've really thought of Teslas as fantastic (and fast) appliances - but as cars for people who don't really like to drive.
I am sold that EVs are the future and I don’t see myself buying another ICE car.
The blog posts that suggest Porsche will never electrify the 911 are disappointing. However, I’m also seeing reports the Taycan may not be the giant Panamera schoolbus I fear so maybe that is my solution.
No argument that Tesla has some questionable fit/finish issues. A Porsche EV would be hugely preferable to me over a Tesla one...it just has to be the car I need.
Their new roadster comes very close, but it’s too expensive at 250k. At 125k I would have ordered already.
Anyway, interesting discussion all around and I hope I haven’t strayed too far off topic by introducing this thread.
03-24-2019, 09:04 PM
#65
You should buy the car you like, but since you want me to talk you out if it...
Do you know why circuit championship race is more successful with traditional engine than electric? It is because electric engine is way too quiet in the circuit. Sound is a big factor and important for some people. The roar is a statement.
Do you know why circuit championship race is more successful with traditional engine than electric? It is because electric engine is way too quiet in the circuit. Sound is a big factor and important for some people. The roar is a statement.
03-25-2019, 11:17 AM
#66
Pro
I love the sound of the engines on the racetrack, but I believe that noise pollution is a real thing and will be increasingly frowned upon as EV's become more prevalent. I no longer want a loud car that wakes up my neighbors. Now if we had a stealth mode and a mode to open it up on the highway - that seems like a good compromise.
03-25-2019, 01:02 PM
#67
Pro
I love the sound of the engines on the racetrack, but I believe that noise pollution is a real thing and will be increasingly frowned upon as EV's become more prevalent. I no longer want a loud car that wakes up my neighbors. Now if we had a stealth mode and a mode to open it up on the highway - that seems like a good compromise.
03-25-2019, 01:07 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
I may be to old to get the allure of the Tesla and other elec cars. Straight line zoom with no noise and personally not a fan of the cabin. I don't get it but that doesn't make it wrong just wrong for me. Want faster go to a TT or TTS and keep the noise and cornering of a Porsche. Again don't go by me as my plan is to depart earth without ever having to own an all elec car.
My car has to have soul, personality, and attitude (sound is important) I just don't think I can get those from an all elec car.
My car has to have soul, personality, and attitude (sound is important) I just don't think I can get those from an all elec car.
03-25-2019, 01:15 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
I have been thinking of getting one too. I think it is an excellent daily driver.
Also the sequoia driver above is total joker!
I mean what kind of person drives a Sequoia in the first place. It's a bit like hearing complaints about Porsche from an Oldsmobile driver.
Also the sequoia driver above is total joker!
I mean what kind of person drives a Sequoia in the first place. It's a bit like hearing complaints about Porsche from an Oldsmobile driver.
Last edited by stealthpilot; 03-25-2019 at 08:14 PM.
03-25-2019, 03:32 PM
#70
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This thread is full of a lot of hot air and hyperbole. I bet most of those criticizing the car haven't driven one, or at least more than 5 minutes.
The Model 3, particularly the performance on PS4S, is excellent in turns.
Would be willing to be 991 Targa and Model 3 would have similar lap times, albeit over only 3-4 laps.
I would agree, two Model 3's (or the same of any car in reality) is pretty boring.
LOL, hell no it's not. My LRAWD does 0-60 in 4.2 and is about to get a tenth faster from an OTA update. The Performance does it in 3.2 and about to get the same upgrade. That's slow? LOLZ.
Handling is anything but terrible. Lack of exhaust noise is great with no commute.
Hahah, go drive one and report back about bad handling.
Actually used Model S and X values are fairly high.
Shhh, don't interject facts to spoil the hyperbole.
Makes for an amazingly calming commute.
I would, but only because owning two Model 3's would be pretty boring. I wanted to hold out for the Taycan but if pricing is between a Cayenne and a Panamera, it's too much money for what I use it for. Plus it'll be tough to get for probably another year or so. By which time if I REALLY want one, I'll trade in the Model 3.
So with that said, personally an EV for me is a "commuter" car that should make "dollar sense" because at this point that's all they are good for with the range limitation for long distance outside the urban area. It doesnt matter if the range of the EV is 89 miles or 300 miles if you are using it as a commuter....and once you go beyond 200 miles.....even the 300 mile range EV is a hassle..... Yes 200 miles is always gonna be better than 89 miles range....but the average daily commute is about 40 miles for people in the US so 89 miles is plenty (my commuter is above the average). Of course if money aint a thing for you, then sure buy the Tesla, and I would get the Model S and not the 3 (way better quality from what I have seen) as a commuter :-)
and if you are talking about "driving pleasure" .....well anyone who says the Tesla is a GREAT performance car have no idea WTH they are talking about........sure they can hit 0-60 in a few ticks.....but how well can a 4100lbs handle? sure low CG etc etc. but we all know one of the main ingredient to a good sports car is light weight....and the Tesla is a HOG!
Tesla Model 3 is a better car, quality wise, than the Model S. And more sophisticated. But the Model S does have the air suspension that rides better.
To answer your second point, it handles really well. I have a Model 3 and a 991 C2S so I think I might know what I'm talking about.
I can go from 75 to 100 in the blink of an eye. Compared to a lifted truck? No contest, Tesla wins every time. In Houston, I encounter just about every kind of lifted, modded, coal rolling truck you can imagine. I've yet to have one that can accelerate faster than me under 100. Also, he probably wasn't brake checking you. Autosteer / TACC can get spooked by cars approaching it from the side too quickly and drop speed. It's one of it's faults and why no one should trust autopilot to be completely hands off.
There are WAAAAY more Porsche owners who don't know squat about cars than Porsche owners. WAY more. But I agree, there can be some seriously annoying Tesla owners. Many of them tend to act like their Tesla is the next coming, and that it's SOOOO much better than any ICE vehicle. I hate that. Completely torpedoes the effort to make EV's more accepted by the general public. Of course, any marque has it's fanatical zealot supporters, but there is something about the self-righteousness of some Tesla owners that makes me want to slap them.
So I'm not Tesla fan boy(might be becoming one actually, ugg)., but I am seriously digging this car. Its just very relaxing to get in and go without touching anything. Its the Biggest sleeper car EVER... So the chest-puffing claims of "you haven't driven a real car if you think a Tesla is good" , or "one trick pony" are nonsense. The car is an excellent performer by most any standard, and seriously blows the doors of much more expensive cars.... though yes it is not as Luxurious.
I would say if you haven't driven the Performance Model, then stop any of the "assumptions" and arguments and go drive one. Then come back and say "I wasn't impressed".
!
I won't quote your whole post, but would say that you and I agree 100% on all that you said.
In case you haven't figured it out by now, I own a Model 3. Have owned it since December. I have to say it's not perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as most who dismiss it make it out to be. Build quality was very good, although it's certainly no Porsche in terms of overall parts quality. About on par with a mid-range Acura (I'm talking quality of materials not fit and finish). But then again, a Porsche is in a much higher price bracket so it should be.
I got the Model 3 because I have a 90 plus mile daily commute, with some days frequently more with site visits. I traded in my Mk 7 GTI which I loved and still loved, but when I changed jobs from 25 miles a day to 100, had to go. The Model 3 is a joy to drive and hustle. Steering is very quick and well weighted, and while it doesn't have as much feedback as my 911, isn't that far behind it (my 2013 has some pretty numb early Porsche EPS). Ride quality isn't great on the Houston concrete jungle...springs are short and you can run out of travel. But it's not harsh and can deal with our crappy roads really well. Far from being an appliance, it's very fun to hustle through the corners. The steering combined with the precision of one pedal driving means you can be REALLY smooth and carry speed well. Roll is minimal with the low COG and although the LRR All Season tires aren't much to write home about, they aren't dreadful. But moreover, the feel you get from pushing the car is one that has been well engineered to go, stop and turn really well. Are there inherent limitations? Of course. Is it a pure sports car? Of course not. Would I take it over a 3 series? 10/10 times. Over a 911? Well, now you're mixing apples and oranges.
My daily commute is long, in heavy traffic, and over poor roads. I've taken my 911 and it just is awful. The clutch is heavy (991.1) in traffic, the visibility of the cab is ****, it's loud as hell and the roads do it no favors. The Tesla destroys it for this purpose. But it still feels sporty, lively and entertaining. On the back roads, the 911 comes into it's element. It's hard to beat a purpose built sports car for entertainment on back roads, and a Porsche is one of the best sports car ever, if not the best. I still love my 991. But for a sports sedan, the Model 3 is an excellent counterpoint to any BMW / Audi / Mercedes or Alfa out there. No, it's not beautiful. Head on is worst as the large glasshouse is most emphasized. The front bumper....is best in dark colors. But the front 1/4 view gets better and the flanks and shoulders have some very nice sculpting to them. Compared to the new BMW "huge kidney" look and Lexus' Predator-aping maw, I find it's in good company in the "questionable looks" department.
Still don't believe me? See what a Hagerty contributor has to say:
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...-tesla-model-3
or from a fellow Rennlister who's on his second 991 GT3 and tracks at Laguna Seca and other places:
https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan-a...a-edition.html
I'm very happy with my Model 3 so far. I wish Tesla would get their act together and get rid of the damn drama, but they won't fail. They have too much brand value and someone would snap them up if times got that tough. But to dismiss their cars, in particular the Model 3, as slow or ill-handling is just not true. Are they perfect? Are they for everyone? Do they have the emotion of a loud sports car? Hell no! It's perfect for me as we have a capable long-haul bladder busting SUV for trips and also a droptop sports car for the weekends. All of our needs are met. Even doing 180 miles in a day, i've not even used more than 65% of the range...and that was in the winter. If you're in the market for a sports sedan for a commuter or just an around town fun car, you could do far worse than to look at a Model 3.
LOL, hell no it's not. My LRAWD does 0-60 in 4.2 and is about to get a tenth faster from an OTA update. The Performance does it in 3.2 and about to get the same upgrade. That's slow? LOLZ.
While it doesn't make all the noses and perhaps lacks feel, it is brutally effective. Randy Pobst drove one around Streets of Willow in 1:21.49 on MPSC2 tires which matches a Cayman GT4 and is faster than a 2011 Ferrari 458 (1:22.30). Randy drove the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio to 1:22.78. So yeah, the Model 3 topped the 505hp sport sedan. A Mustang GT with Performance Pack 1 ran a 1:23.97, so the Model 3 was about 2.5 seconds faster than a dedicated performance car.
Makes for an amazingly calming commute.
So with that said, personally an EV for me is a "commuter" car that should make "dollar sense" because at this point that's all they are good for with the range limitation for long distance outside the urban area. It doesnt matter if the range of the EV is 89 miles or 300 miles if you are using it as a commuter....and once you go beyond 200 miles.....even the 300 mile range EV is a hassle..... Yes 200 miles is always gonna be better than 89 miles range....but the average daily commute is about 40 miles for people in the US so 89 miles is plenty (my commuter is above the average). Of course if money aint a thing for you, then sure buy the Tesla, and I would get the Model S and not the 3 (way better quality from what I have seen) as a commuter :-)
and if you are talking about "driving pleasure" .....well anyone who says the Tesla is a GREAT performance car have no idea WTH they are talking about........sure they can hit 0-60 in a few ticks.....but how well can a 4100lbs handle? sure low CG etc etc. but we all know one of the main ingredient to a good sports car is light weight....and the Tesla is a HOG!
To answer your second point, it handles really well. I have a Model 3 and a 991 C2S so I think I might know what I'm talking about.
I'm still LOLing at people calling a Model 3 fast.
Lets just say I had a nasty encounter with one on the highway in my lifted 2005 Toyota Sequoia on big heavy tires... The douche in the model 3 brake checked me on a wide open highway in the left lane while I was creeping up on him going 75mph.. A game of cat and mouse ensued and the guy couldn't shake the Sequoia for the life of him.. Including exiting and driving through city streets.
Lets just say I had a nasty encounter with one on the highway in my lifted 2005 Toyota Sequoia on big heavy tires... The douche in the model 3 brake checked me on a wide open highway in the left lane while I was creeping up on him going 75mph.. A game of cat and mouse ensued and the guy couldn't shake the Sequoia for the life of him.. Including exiting and driving through city streets.
So I'm not Tesla fan boy(might be becoming one actually, ugg)., but I am seriously digging this car. Its just very relaxing to get in and go without touching anything. Its the Biggest sleeper car EVER... So the chest-puffing claims of "you haven't driven a real car if you think a Tesla is good" , or "one trick pony" are nonsense. The car is an excellent performer by most any standard, and seriously blows the doors of much more expensive cars.... though yes it is not as Luxurious.
I would say if you haven't driven the Performance Model, then stop any of the "assumptions" and arguments and go drive one. Then come back and say "I wasn't impressed".
!
In case you haven't figured it out by now, I own a Model 3. Have owned it since December. I have to say it's not perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as most who dismiss it make it out to be. Build quality was very good, although it's certainly no Porsche in terms of overall parts quality. About on par with a mid-range Acura (I'm talking quality of materials not fit and finish). But then again, a Porsche is in a much higher price bracket so it should be.
I got the Model 3 because I have a 90 plus mile daily commute, with some days frequently more with site visits. I traded in my Mk 7 GTI which I loved and still loved, but when I changed jobs from 25 miles a day to 100, had to go. The Model 3 is a joy to drive and hustle. Steering is very quick and well weighted, and while it doesn't have as much feedback as my 911, isn't that far behind it (my 2013 has some pretty numb early Porsche EPS). Ride quality isn't great on the Houston concrete jungle...springs are short and you can run out of travel. But it's not harsh and can deal with our crappy roads really well. Far from being an appliance, it's very fun to hustle through the corners. The steering combined with the precision of one pedal driving means you can be REALLY smooth and carry speed well. Roll is minimal with the low COG and although the LRR All Season tires aren't much to write home about, they aren't dreadful. But moreover, the feel you get from pushing the car is one that has been well engineered to go, stop and turn really well. Are there inherent limitations? Of course. Is it a pure sports car? Of course not. Would I take it over a 3 series? 10/10 times. Over a 911? Well, now you're mixing apples and oranges.
My daily commute is long, in heavy traffic, and over poor roads. I've taken my 911 and it just is awful. The clutch is heavy (991.1) in traffic, the visibility of the cab is ****, it's loud as hell and the roads do it no favors. The Tesla destroys it for this purpose. But it still feels sporty, lively and entertaining. On the back roads, the 911 comes into it's element. It's hard to beat a purpose built sports car for entertainment on back roads, and a Porsche is one of the best sports car ever, if not the best. I still love my 991. But for a sports sedan, the Model 3 is an excellent counterpoint to any BMW / Audi / Mercedes or Alfa out there. No, it's not beautiful. Head on is worst as the large glasshouse is most emphasized. The front bumper....is best in dark colors. But the front 1/4 view gets better and the flanks and shoulders have some very nice sculpting to them. Compared to the new BMW "huge kidney" look and Lexus' Predator-aping maw, I find it's in good company in the "questionable looks" department.
Still don't believe me? See what a Hagerty contributor has to say:
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...-tesla-model-3
or from a fellow Rennlister who's on his second 991 GT3 and tracks at Laguna Seca and other places:
https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan-a...a-edition.html
I'm very happy with my Model 3 so far. I wish Tesla would get their act together and get rid of the damn drama, but they won't fail. They have too much brand value and someone would snap them up if times got that tough. But to dismiss their cars, in particular the Model 3, as slow or ill-handling is just not true. Are they perfect? Are they for everyone? Do they have the emotion of a loud sports car? Hell no! It's perfect for me as we have a capable long-haul bladder busting SUV for trips and also a droptop sports car for the weekends. All of our needs are met. Even doing 180 miles in a day, i've not even used more than 65% of the range...and that was in the winter. If you're in the market for a sports sedan for a commuter or just an around town fun car, you could do far worse than to look at a Model 3.
Last edited by Needsdecaf; 03-25-2019 at 04:00 PM.
03-25-2019, 11:34 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Sorry, but if it can't make it out of Florida during a hurricane evacuation without dying along a crowded Interstate with AC on, it needs to be a beater and priced at $20k, max.
The next hurricane won't be my first rodeo...
The next hurricane won't be my first rodeo...
03-25-2019, 11:39 PM
#72
Needscafe.. The guy was consistently trying to "troll" me on the highway by dropping back and flooring it each time I was going to pass him. I pegged at 115 and he couldn't shake me on the highway. Finally he got spooked and took my exit coincidentally.. He was trying to rip away from me left and right but just couldn't do it.. I chose to let him go.
Maybe you don't race much.. I don't know.. The toyota tops out at 115.. Whats the fastest Model 3 top out at? I bet it's not enough to sustain escaping a Toyota SUV. With the GTS it would be the other way around.. On the highway that Model 3 had a mediocre pull at best.
Maybe you don't race much.. I don't know.. The toyota tops out at 115.. Whats the fastest Model 3 top out at? I bet it's not enough to sustain escaping a Toyota SUV. With the GTS it would be the other way around.. On the highway that Model 3 had a mediocre pull at best.
03-26-2019, 02:29 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by PCA1983
Sorry, but if it can't make it out of Florida during a hurricane evacuation without dying along a crowded Interstate with AC on, it needs to be a beater and priced at $20k, max.
The next hurricane won't be my first rodeo...
The next hurricane won't be my first rodeo...
If you need to use a car to evacuate then you are too poor to own a ****ing Tesla or a Porsche.
03-26-2019, 02:46 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
[quote=Psorcery]The toyota tops out at 115.. Whats the fastest Model 3 top out at? I bet it's not enough. With the GTS it would be the other way around.. On the highway that Model 3 had a mediocre pull [quote]
Model 3 Performance 162 mph.
Model 3 Performance 162 mph.
03-26-2019, 03:52 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Attempting to compare a 911 to a Tesla is like asking if one would rather sleep with a beautiful woman that’s good in bed or an ugly fat woman that’s great in bed. For me, I would never even think of the latter therefore, I’ll stick with my Porsche and smile each and every day I “drive” her.