Dear Porsche,
08-06-2019, 06:46 PM
#181
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The C8 will do for the sports car competition what the original NSX did. Everyone will have to bring their best products.
Lets see how much Porsche will make us pay for their's...
Lets see how much Porsche will make us pay for their's...
Last edited by dmk2; 08-08-2019 at 12:15 AM.
08-07-2019, 09:41 AM
#182
Rennlist Member
Having recently jumped back into a 911 I'm enjoying immensely its rear-engine bias. The power is so THERE, with no worry of the wheel spin I get in my 987.2 Spyder. I'm not sure I really want the 911 to change that much and I agree 100% with Grantsfo - the next refinement of the 911 will be the entry of EV, probably a hybrid version. Exciting times for me, as an aging member of the petrol head generation.
Last edited by Zeus993; 08-08-2019 at 10:53 AM.
08-07-2019, 01:04 PM
#183
Rennlist Member
Honestly I think the whole automobile world has gone bat **** crazy. This is both on the manufacture side, and the consumer side.
The consumer side is focused on 0-60 times, screen sizes, gas mileage, and other automotive statistics that frankly don't mean squat when it comes to the driving experience. This is further fueled by automotive journalists, who people seem to cherish, many of whom are owned by automakers and would never bash a new model, yet many have not driven older generations of cars to understand what nuances have been improved or destroyed by each generation of cars. I had a 5 year old neighbor tell me he loves cars. He then explained to me how the "screen" in my car is small and I should consider upgrading. His dad, who is not a car guy and drives a pickup, reinforced this stupidity by agreeing and saying "yeah, I guess for Porsche money you don't get a big screen". To which I told him I have never used the nav and hardly use the radio. The car is not about that for me but that can't be explained in words easily. And you cannot sell cars based on that. Marketing people want specs.
This is all coupled with world Government meddling that drives enthusiasm out of automobiles and basically threatens to put any non compliant company out of business if they don't comply with emissions.
The only thing that wakes car companies up are sales numbers and profits. The 911, Cayman, and Boxster are niche cars. They are the poorest selling models for Porsche. The cost to fabricate a 911 is almost exactly the same as a Cayman or Boxster if not cheaper since they amortize the tooling for 911 specific parts over a higher volume build. Follow the money. The Cayman and Boxster are entry level models in Porsche's mind. They want people to come in and want more and spend more.
If Porsche felt that a super Boxster or super Cayman with straight up 911 capabilities and pricing was profitable they would build every variant they could and there would be model ranges from 60K to 260K. They have not made the business case in their mind. The GT4 is still their experiment in this area.
There are image issues with the Boxster and Cayman. These issues may never be overcome. For non enthusiasts, and even some enthusiasts, the Boxster and Cayman will always be "lesser than" cars. When my 981 Cayman S was totaled I had two people, TWO, tell me "at least it wasn't a 911". I don't care, but it shows the peceived image differences.
If they scrapped the names, rebooted the mid engined platform, called it something else, and priced it exactly like the 911, they would have something. The problem is Porsche has electric visions of the future.
End of the day, does it matter? All of these cars are faster than ever, but on the street are insulated and geared in ways so they feel slower than cars of the past.
The consumer side is focused on 0-60 times, screen sizes, gas mileage, and other automotive statistics that frankly don't mean squat when it comes to the driving experience. This is further fueled by automotive journalists, who people seem to cherish, many of whom are owned by automakers and would never bash a new model, yet many have not driven older generations of cars to understand what nuances have been improved or destroyed by each generation of cars. I had a 5 year old neighbor tell me he loves cars. He then explained to me how the "screen" in my car is small and I should consider upgrading. His dad, who is not a car guy and drives a pickup, reinforced this stupidity by agreeing and saying "yeah, I guess for Porsche money you don't get a big screen". To which I told him I have never used the nav and hardly use the radio. The car is not about that for me but that can't be explained in words easily. And you cannot sell cars based on that. Marketing people want specs.
This is all coupled with world Government meddling that drives enthusiasm out of automobiles and basically threatens to put any non compliant company out of business if they don't comply with emissions.
The only thing that wakes car companies up are sales numbers and profits. The 911, Cayman, and Boxster are niche cars. They are the poorest selling models for Porsche. The cost to fabricate a 911 is almost exactly the same as a Cayman or Boxster if not cheaper since they amortize the tooling for 911 specific parts over a higher volume build. Follow the money. The Cayman and Boxster are entry level models in Porsche's mind. They want people to come in and want more and spend more.
If Porsche felt that a super Boxster or super Cayman with straight up 911 capabilities and pricing was profitable they would build every variant they could and there would be model ranges from 60K to 260K. They have not made the business case in their mind. The GT4 is still their experiment in this area.
There are image issues with the Boxster and Cayman. These issues may never be overcome. For non enthusiasts, and even some enthusiasts, the Boxster and Cayman will always be "lesser than" cars. When my 981 Cayman S was totaled I had two people, TWO, tell me "at least it wasn't a 911". I don't care, but it shows the peceived image differences.
If they scrapped the names, rebooted the mid engined platform, called it something else, and priced it exactly like the 911, they would have something. The problem is Porsche has electric visions of the future.
End of the day, does it matter? All of these cars are faster than ever, but on the street are insulated and geared in ways so they feel slower than cars of the past.
The following users liked this post:
Zeus993 (08-08-2019)
08-07-2019, 02:06 PM
#184
Rennlist Member
So Chevy comes out with what looks like a decent car in the C8 and Porsche now has to prove something and figure out a way to justify their existence? Sorry don't get it. Great that Vette owners and others have another choice in what seems like will be an impressive car.
For as long as I can remember Porsche has always gotten a premium for their cars and never once have I see where they had to force buyers to buy their product. Porsche has never been only about 0-60 times even though some of their cars can put down impressive numbers. Instead I found it was about driving experience. I have had over a dozen Porsche 911 cars and can count on 2 fingers the number of times I was without my car for longer than a day because of some major breakdown and I drive the cars daily (except in crappy winter weather).
I still get out of the car smiling and always seem to look back after parking. I think the C8 will be a great car for a lot of drivers and may make some builders stand up and take notice. I'll keep driving my 911, not a snob just have no reason to leave for a few tenths of a second here or there. If it was about the money I wouldn't own any sports car as they can all be money pits at times.
For as long as I can remember Porsche has always gotten a premium for their cars and never once have I see where they had to force buyers to buy their product. Porsche has never been only about 0-60 times even though some of their cars can put down impressive numbers. Instead I found it was about driving experience. I have had over a dozen Porsche 911 cars and can count on 2 fingers the number of times I was without my car for longer than a day because of some major breakdown and I drive the cars daily (except in crappy winter weather).
I still get out of the car smiling and always seem to look back after parking. I think the C8 will be a great car for a lot of drivers and may make some builders stand up and take notice. I'll keep driving my 911, not a snob just have no reason to leave for a few tenths of a second here or there. If it was about the money I wouldn't own any sports car as they can all be money pits at times.
08-08-2019, 09:44 AM
#185
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Perhaps we should think about this from another perspective.
Would the faithful shun the 911 if the motor continued to move closer to the middle from the rear?
Would the faithful shun the 911 if the motor continued to move closer to the middle from the rear?
08-08-2019, 10:00 AM
#186
Racer
But the "faithful" are getting older and the new generation thinks that having engine mass more centrally located makes sense.
Jason
08-08-2019, 10:18 AM
#187
Rennlist Member
In the current generation of 911 cars is anyone here having any issues with driving characteristics that necessitate a move to a totally new mid engine model? With the engine continually moved forward on recent models of the 911 the tail happy days of the 911 are mostly a thing of the past. When cornering my TTS at speed my eyeballs almost become detached. What are we looking for that these cars don't do?
I have owned 2 different Porsche mid engine Boxsters and no doubt the handling is superb so having another platform with power could be interesting but not because the 911 is inferior or out of date. These cars are excellent that is why they are the benchmark for other brands when trying to break into this level of performance/price. And yes I'm older and one of the faithful but I've owned many other brands and still make my choice Porsche.
I have owned 2 different Porsche mid engine Boxsters and no doubt the handling is superb so having another platform with power could be interesting but not because the 911 is inferior or out of date. These cars are excellent that is why they are the benchmark for other brands when trying to break into this level of performance/price. And yes I'm older and one of the faithful but I've owned many other brands and still make my choice Porsche.
08-08-2019, 11:06 AM
#190
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I appreciate and own a Cayman and a Carrera.
I grew up in the era of the air cooled cars, and waiting for the day that I could purchase my first 911.
When that day came I ended up buying a Cayman because Porsche finally built the "mid-engine Carrera"
So I have a foot in both eras. I too think the 911 can survive for many generations to come, but as a grand touring car.
The Cayman has become the lithe sports car the 911 once was, with physics in its favor.
To answer my own question, I think the rear engine design is what keeps the 911 unique in a field of similar cars. It should be allowed to reach its full potential as a grand touring car. This would fulfill the desires of the traditionalist owners.
However, the Cayman platform should be allowed to serve as the fully developed sports car of the family.
That would keep buyers coming and away from competitors.
I grew up in the era of the air cooled cars, and waiting for the day that I could purchase my first 911.
When that day came I ended up buying a Cayman because Porsche finally built the "mid-engine Carrera"
So I have a foot in both eras. I too think the 911 can survive for many generations to come, but as a grand touring car.
The Cayman has become the lithe sports car the 911 once was, with physics in its favor.
To answer my own question, I think the rear engine design is what keeps the 911 unique in a field of similar cars. It should be allowed to reach its full potential as a grand touring car. This would fulfill the desires of the traditionalist owners.
However, the Cayman platform should be allowed to serve as the fully developed sports car of the family.
That would keep buyers coming and away from competitors.
Last edited by dmk2; 08-08-2019 at 04:49 PM.
08-08-2019, 12:31 PM
#191
For me a 911 has to be rear-engined just to preserve the heritage of this line, and also because it makes the driving experience so different from other cars.
But it also has great packaging advantages. I'm amazed such a small car has usable back seats and lots of room for tall drivers.
But it also has great packaging advantages. I'm amazed such a small car has usable back seats and lots of room for tall drivers.
08-08-2019, 01:41 PM
#192
Rennlist Member
If the 911 continues as a 2+2 sports car, the engine is not moving forward any more than it has already.
My personal vote? Leave the Carrera base, S, and GTS series alone. Leave the boxster/cayman base, S, GTS alone (but go back to 6 cyl in all models). Delete the GT4 from the lineup.
The "GT" series of cars becomes 2 seat, mid engine cars built for enthusiasts. Three model levels:
-GT-Touring: two seats. wing optional. Built as entry level enthusiast car. 110K MSRP. - NA 4.0L from GT4. 400HP. Stick optional. Ships with PS4's. Cup tires optional. (sort of like a carrera T/GT4 replacement).
-GT3: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3. Wing optional. Stick optional.
-GT3RS: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3-RS.
My personal vote? Leave the Carrera base, S, and GTS series alone. Leave the boxster/cayman base, S, GTS alone (but go back to 6 cyl in all models). Delete the GT4 from the lineup.
The "GT" series of cars becomes 2 seat, mid engine cars built for enthusiasts. Three model levels:
-GT-Touring: two seats. wing optional. Built as entry level enthusiast car. 110K MSRP. - NA 4.0L from GT4. 400HP. Stick optional. Ships with PS4's. Cup tires optional. (sort of like a carrera T/GT4 replacement).
-GT3: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3. Wing optional. Stick optional.
-GT3RS: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3-RS.
The following users liked this post:
CraigW1 (08-08-2019)
08-08-2019, 01:45 PM
#193
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
If the 911 continues as a 2+2 sports car, the engine is not moving forward any more than it has already.
My personal vote? Leave the Carrera base, S, and GTS series alone. Leave the boxster/cayman base, S, GTS alone (but go back to 6 cyl in all models). Delete the GT4 from the lineup.
The "GT" series of cars becomes 2 seat, mid engine cars built for enthusiasts. Three model levels:
-GT-Touring: two seats. wing optional. Built as entry level enthusiast car. 110K MSRP. - NA 4.0L from GT4. 400HP. Stick optional. Ships with PS4's. Cup tires optional. (sort of like a carrera T/GT4 replacement).
-GT3: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3. Wing optional. Stick optional.
-GT3RS: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3-RS.
My personal vote? Leave the Carrera base, S, and GTS series alone. Leave the boxster/cayman base, S, GTS alone (but go back to 6 cyl in all models). Delete the GT4 from the lineup.
The "GT" series of cars becomes 2 seat, mid engine cars built for enthusiasts. Three model levels:
-GT-Touring: two seats. wing optional. Built as entry level enthusiast car. 110K MSRP. - NA 4.0L from GT4. 400HP. Stick optional. Ships with PS4's. Cup tires optional. (sort of like a carrera T/GT4 replacement).
-GT3: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3. Wing optional. Stick optional.
-GT3RS: Basically a mid engine, two seat GT3-RS.
The following users liked this post:
ClassJ (08-08-2019)
08-08-2019, 03:45 PM
#194
Racer
I appreciate and own a Cayman and a Carrera.
I too think the 911 can survive for many generations to come, but as grand touring car.
The Cayman has become the lithe sports car the 911 once was, with physics in its favor.
To answer my own question, I think the rear engine design is what keeps the 911 unique in a field of similar cars. It should be allowed to reach its full potential as a grand touring car. This would fulfill the desires of the traditionalist owners.
However, the Cayman platform should be allowed to serve as the fully developed sports car of the family.
That would keep buyers coming and away from competitors.
I too think the 911 can survive for many generations to come, but as grand touring car.
The Cayman has become the lithe sports car the 911 once was, with physics in its favor.
To answer my own question, I think the rear engine design is what keeps the 911 unique in a field of similar cars. It should be allowed to reach its full potential as a grand touring car. This would fulfill the desires of the traditionalist owners.
However, the Cayman platform should be allowed to serve as the fully developed sports car of the family.
That would keep buyers coming and away from competitors.
I currently own a 991.2 but have owned two Caymans. The 911 makes a great GT car and the mid-engine Cayman makes a great track car.
Jason
