do I really need winter tires?
12-12-2017 | 10:18 PM
#31
Drifting
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,096
Likes: 44
Highway 80 going up to Tahoe is a miserable mess all winter because Californians who don’t normally need to change out tires think driving in the snow with even all seasons should be fine because they have 4WD. I’ve watched a confused pickup driver spin out into the exact same snow bank twice in a row “but I have 4WD”.
12-12-2017 | 10:18 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 802
Likes: 58
From: Albuquerque
I'm going to attempt to drive my new 4 GTS this Thursday back from the dealership on summer tires, and I'm in Boston. I expect it to be bad, not because of road conditions, but because it's cold, and the tire grip is going to be poor. Once it's home I'll change to my winter wheels.
If time is more of a concern than money, keeping the winter tires mounted on a separate set of wheels saves considerable effort. Personally, I went with some relatively inexpensive Victor Equipment LeMans for the winter wheels. Unless you're expecting to participate in some sort of winter sports, there's no compelling reason to spend a ton of money on winter wheels.
I'll let you know if I don't die. If you don't hear from me by Friday, assume that driving on summer tires locally is a bad, bad idea.
If time is more of a concern than money, keeping the winter tires mounted on a separate set of wheels saves considerable effort. Personally, I went with some relatively inexpensive Victor Equipment LeMans for the winter wheels. Unless you're expecting to participate in some sort of winter sports, there's no compelling reason to spend a ton of money on winter wheels.
I'll let you know if I don't die. If you don't hear from me by Friday, assume that driving on summer tires locally is a bad, bad idea.
12-12-2017 | 10:25 PM
#33
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,009
Likes: 263
From: CT
Originally Posted by tse
Thanks for being a good sport, so am I so keep throwing stuff over the fence.
No winter tires for me. Rumble Bee is stuck in my sad garage, sucking juice from an outlet!
As temperatures reach mid 40s once in a while, I'll be taking her out for a spin.
12-12-2017 | 10:26 PM
#35
Race Car
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,596
Likes: 1,297
Highway 80 going up to Tahoe is a miserable mess all winter because Californians who don’t normally need to change out tires think driving in the snow with even all seasons should be fine because they have 4WD. I’ve watched a confused pickup driver spin out into the exact same snow bank twice in a row “but I have 4WD”.
12-12-2017 | 10:27 PM
#36
Pro
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 615
Likes: 203
From: Zzz
Interesting read for me. Where I live in VA we have roughly 50 days per year where min temps are below freezing. We get very little (if any) snow and temps can very from freezing to 60 degrees F in a single week. Would you guys invest in winter tires if you had a short and low speed commute to work under such circumstances? If I could find a set of all seasons that fit properly I would consider them as my “winter” tires...but haven’t found any yet
NF
12-12-2017 | 10:29 PM
#38
Race Car
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,596
Likes: 1,297
12-12-2017 | 10:42 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,478
Likes: 547
From: Toronto Canada eh!
guys comparing summer performance tires from 30 years ago to today is night and day. the new sticky tires do not work well in cold temps. That being said it also depends on your experience in the cold and snow. I grew up driving all season and summer tires through lots of snow and learned how to drive in these conditions. That being said this is the first year in over 10 that I am going with all seasons on a awd A4. But I don;t drive much in winter and can use my wifes SUV with snows. pzeros do not work well in snow, they can be nursed around in cold temps though.
If you plan to keep the car or any for any length of time it makes sense to buy snows and swap them out every year, that way you aren't wearing down your summers as fast and they will last longer and the wheels and snows will always be worth something. Driving a performance car with snows can be a lot of fun, I just am not crazy about the salt, dirt and slush that corrodes everything under the car. If you put a car that has been driven in snow with salt on a lift you will be disgusted by the oxidation.
If you plan to keep the car or any for any length of time it makes sense to buy snows and swap them out every year, that way you aren't wearing down your summers as fast and they will last longer and the wheels and snows will always be worth something. Driving a performance car with snows can be a lot of fun, I just am not crazy about the salt, dirt and slush that corrodes everything under the car. If you put a car that has been driven in snow with salt on a lift you will be disgusted by the oxidation.
12-12-2017 | 11:11 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 802
Likes: 58
From: Albuquerque
12-13-2017 | 12:15 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 1,125
From: SW Colorado
Once upon a time tires were tires, and all had bias carcass design. Some people put snow tires on the rear (since nobody had front wheel drive), with a couple of bags of sand in the trunk. More dedicated, or nervous, people put on chains, as did truckers and jeeps used with snow plows.
Then some early adopters mounted radial tires (imported from euro-land). Better traction in general, which led some people to say they could double as snow tires. Early versions of "all season" tires promised more, but mostly targeted average drivers and cars.
Radials also begat performance tires and then high performance tires and then ultra-high performance tires. At some point manufacturers gave up on satisfying more general needs, like tread wear and cold weather capabilities.
Meanwhile, winter tires evolved from "snows" to studded snows, and then more high-tech studless winter tires. As a specialty subset, some manufacturers designed performance studless winter tires (and then, of course, high perfomance winter tires).
Our desires for extreme levels of function have fragmented the tire landscape. We wish for ultimate performance, in "summer" and give up utility in "winter". And winter does not just mean snow, it means temperatures below the summer design criteria. And those temps are not just the air, but the road surface.
Then some early adopters mounted radial tires (imported from euro-land). Better traction in general, which led some people to say they could double as snow tires. Early versions of "all season" tires promised more, but mostly targeted average drivers and cars.
Radials also begat performance tires and then high performance tires and then ultra-high performance tires. At some point manufacturers gave up on satisfying more general needs, like tread wear and cold weather capabilities.
Meanwhile, winter tires evolved from "snows" to studded snows, and then more high-tech studless winter tires. As a specialty subset, some manufacturers designed performance studless winter tires (and then, of course, high perfomance winter tires).
Our desires for extreme levels of function have fragmented the tire landscape. We wish for ultimate performance, in "summer" and give up utility in "winter". And winter does not just mean snow, it means temperatures below the summer design criteria. And those temps are not just the air, but the road surface.
12-13-2017 | 01:16 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,478
Likes: 547
From: Toronto Canada eh!
ask the dealership to come pick up the winter wheels at your home before you pick up the car. They should have a car jockey that can come get them as a customer service gesture.
12-13-2017 | 10:49 AM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,859
Likes: 138
From: Toronto
Here in Western Washington we sometimes get freezing temps and occasionally even snow, but mostly just cold rain. The passes however are only an hour away and compact snow and ice most of the winter. It is if anything even colder in Eastern Washington, where I attended WSU and so for 4 years drove Snoqualmie Pass half a dozen times in winter, plus having the car in Pullman all season which was always at least three months solid compact snow and ice with occasional vast stretches of black ice.
Now I really have no idea what anyone else needs. All I can say is in all those years plus another 30 up until maybe about a dozen years ago I never ran anything but the stickiest most high performance summer tire I could find. Never ran chains. Carried them. One time put them on just to get going. Stopped after less than 100 feet and removed them. One time drove right past a WSP officer on the pass when chains were required. Also drove up to Schweitzer to go skiing one time when chains were required and I would have made it to the top if the idiots who don't know how to drive hadn't slowed me down a little too much at one point a couple hundred yards from the lot.
Of course winter tires are not required. How could they be? What? Are summer tires gonna freeze solid and break into little pieces? I don't think so. What I think, and opinions may differ, but what I think is that just as in summer if you run less than the most high performance tire you will have less traction than the guy who does, and that just as when it rains you will have less traction with no tread compared to full tread, that in winter you will have less traction with anything less than the best winter tire than if you had mounted the best winter tire. Could be wrong. Pretty sure I am right.
What I did was I learned how to drive in those low-traction conditions. Got to where going down a straight road I could put the car in a spin, do a 360, and continue on in a straight line. Got so good at it, got so confident, I even did it one time not on a deserted road but one with cars parked both sides. Yeah, go ahead, have a cow. But when I did this I was GOOD AT IT!
Again, that was with high performance summer tires. Stahlflex 3011's if I got the number right. Great big tread blocks. No sipes. Being a poor college student, not a lot of tread most of the time either.
When I finally did start running winter tires it was NOT for traction but to save my nice summer wheels.
Your mileage (and spins) my vary. That's my take on it: its not the tires. Its the driver.
Now I really have no idea what anyone else needs. All I can say is in all those years plus another 30 up until maybe about a dozen years ago I never ran anything but the stickiest most high performance summer tire I could find. Never ran chains. Carried them. One time put them on just to get going. Stopped after less than 100 feet and removed them. One time drove right past a WSP officer on the pass when chains were required. Also drove up to Schweitzer to go skiing one time when chains were required and I would have made it to the top if the idiots who don't know how to drive hadn't slowed me down a little too much at one point a couple hundred yards from the lot.
Of course winter tires are not required. How could they be? What? Are summer tires gonna freeze solid and break into little pieces? I don't think so. What I think, and opinions may differ, but what I think is that just as in summer if you run less than the most high performance tire you will have less traction than the guy who does, and that just as when it rains you will have less traction with no tread compared to full tread, that in winter you will have less traction with anything less than the best winter tire than if you had mounted the best winter tire. Could be wrong. Pretty sure I am right.
What I did was I learned how to drive in those low-traction conditions. Got to where going down a straight road I could put the car in a spin, do a 360, and continue on in a straight line. Got so good at it, got so confident, I even did it one time not on a deserted road but one with cars parked both sides. Yeah, go ahead, have a cow. But when I did this I was GOOD AT IT!
Again, that was with high performance summer tires. Stahlflex 3011's if I got the number right. Great big tread blocks. No sipes. Being a poor college student, not a lot of tread most of the time either.
When I finally did start running winter tires it was NOT for traction but to save my nice summer wheels.
Your mileage (and spins) my vary. That's my take on it: its not the tires. Its the driver.
What happens if a kid or dog runs out in front of you unexpectedly? People don't seem to get that summer tires are WAY worse than A/S which are worse than Winter tires. Whats the big deal? Just run winter tires. Far and away the safest option.