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I agree with you that pressure is a value of restriction which is why I'm surprised the restriction is so high on these engines. Pressure always equals heat which is a killer, the less heat the better. I was just expecting a lot more efficiency on a 20 year newer engine design hence my question of where the restriction lies that requires so much boost to overcome.
What type of fuel are you running to support 42 psi? What kind of boost / power can these engines put out on pump 91 octane without any crutches like Meth injection for example? I assume 20 psi is relatively stock boost level.
I think it's all in the head but it's hard to say without trying different combinations. Yes, heat is the biggest killer for these cars. Hopefully with the larger turbo and less boost it should have less heat.
Todd has a 997 GT3 TT (should have very high flowing head for an original NA motor, right?) He's boosting somewhere around what I am to get to 1400whp (64mm turbos maxed out). So it's still a huge restriction as twin 64mm are usually capable of 1800whp.
I've learned that with these cars you need to take out 20% of what the turbo is capable of and that's where it will max out at.
All my maps are for pump e85. I have a 91 octane map but I've never put it on the dyno with that. It would be on 18psi (WG spring) with very low timing.
I think it's all in the head but it's hard to say without trying different combinations. Yes, heat is the biggest killer for these cars. Hopefully with the larger turbo and less boost it should have less heat.
Todd has a 997 GT3 TT (should have very high flowing head for an original NA motor, right?) He's boosting somewhere around what I am to get to 1400whp (64mm turbos maxed out). So it's still a huge restriction as twin 64mm are usually capable of 1800whp.
I've learned that with these cars you need to take out 20% of what the turbo is capable of and that's where it will max out at.
All my maps are for pump e85. I have a 91 octane map but I've never put it on the dyno with that. It would be on 18psi (WG spring) with very low timing.
I currently run McKenzie head with Schrick motorsport cam but will be swapping in 997Cup heads with 7.1GT3 variocam, cams and the dual resonance intake. That should net 1000whp on at 8300 and 12 psi on pump gas. Heat is a non issue with low boost values...
Swapped turbos from G30-770 to G30-900. Started to get preliminary dyno numbers as the Motec is able to compensate for additional flow etc.
We tested the same map and compared them (red line previous turbos, blue line new larger turbos)
32psi map on the larger turbos yielded less power. Digging into it, we can see coolant pressure goes up to 46psi (45psi is safety which is why the dyno run got cut a bit short.)
We suspect the head lifting therefore less combustion pressure and/or coolant getting into the combustion chamber killing power.
Motor needs to go back to Evospec for R&R... sigh. Hopefully this can be done within a couple of months as I have planned to go to shift sector at the end of December but I'm not holding my breath.
My motor was originally built in 2019/2020 and it was one of the first O ringed blocks he did. They will go over the engine to make sure everything looks good and to ensure tuning side isn't causing issues.
Also said he has a stage 2 cam so I asked him to install that and do any additional headwork to my car so we can make more power at less boost. I don't think I will go over 36psi on this motor.
One thing to note is the spool. Going from twin 58mm turbos to twin 62mm turbos only had about 200rpm worth of lag. If I were to do this all over I would have started with the G30-900. I'm sure once the motor is back and healthy we'll make the same 1100whp at much less boost vs the previous setup.
Not good news at all. I know how painful this whole deal can be. Ive run 32psi thru my evospec motor. Mine was built December 2021-jan 2023. So far no issues with any suspected head lifting, with xona 6164. However on the last run @ indy, we did start seeing knock. It ended up a bad RHS turbo, thats blew out on the cold side seal, and started pushing oil (a lot). Will go a up a size or two now most likely. Gonna push like hell for the 200mph. Its was nice meeting you @ indy!
Not good news at all. I know how painful this whole deal can be. Ive run 32psi thru my evospec motor. Mine was built December 2021-jan 2023. So far no issues with any suspected head lifting, with xona 6164. However on the last run @ indy, we did start seeing knock. It ended up a bad RHS turbo, thats blew out on the cold side seal, and started pushing oil (a lot). Will go a up a size or two now most likely. Gonna push like hell for the 200mph. Its was nice meeting you @ indy!
Definitely good to meet you Valdas! Your car has a badass setup man, it did exactly what we all expected which is impressive for this platform. I think you should go with the 7864s Xonas, it's a 62mm turbo so it should be similar to my new setup too. I bet these turbos will do 200mph with ease.
Very interesting to read this journey Payam and I wish you the best
was there any reasons given by Wayne as to why he doesnt want to run Methanol and/or more of it?
Thank you!
Methanol is a band-aid for cooling. More methanol will eventually become more fuel and mess with fuel trims between banks and also uneven distribution to each cylinder can cause catastrophic failure.
Best is to go air to liquid on this platform when going 1k+whp.
Methanol is a band-aid for cooling. More methanol will eventually become more fuel and mess with fuel trims between banks and also uneven distribution to each cylinder can cause catastrophic failure.
Best is to go air to liquid on this platform when going 1k+whp.
Thinking out loud, is there a way to run meth through a port injection system for properly calibrated additional fuel, feeding from a secondary tank, kind of like meth now but instead of plenum injection, use port injection thru a Syvecs-like system using engine sensor feedback to control it?
Would it make sense?
Methanol is a band-aid for cooling. More methanol will eventually become more fuel and mess with fuel trims between banks and also uneven distribution to each cylinder can cause catastrophic failure.
Best is to go air to liquid on this platform when going 1k+whp.
interesting
im running a good amount of meth on my car + port injection + di injection.
so far havent noticed any of that looking at logs but i do see how it could negatively impact things as you said
Thinking out loud, is there a way to run meth through a port injection system for properly calibrated additional fuel, feeding from a secondary tank, kind of like meth now but instead of plenum injection, use port injection thru a Syvecs-like system using engine sensor feedback to control it?
Would it make sense?
Not really, you don't need that much meth as additional fuel to justify 6 injectors. If you're going to have that many injectors, you might as well run ethanol.
I've talked with both Sam and Emre about running PI with a Syvecs controller on the stock ECU, but both think it will be too hard to make the stock ECU work with the extra fuel.
Not really, you don't need that much meth as additional fuel to justify 6 injectors. If you're going to have that many injectors, you might as well run ethanol.
I've talked with both Sam and Emre about running PI with a Syvecs controller on the stock ECU, but both think it will be too hard to make the stock ECU work with the extra fuel.
That's good info and pretty much answers my question, thanks.
Hey guys. Our intake manifold actually has threaded ports for methanol or nitrous or some kind of auxiliary injection. We have tested quite a bit of it at different levels with the stock computer and standalone. There are so many theories with methanol injection from putting it in the turbo compressor to right before the throttle, where most everyone has been doing it for years now, and even doing it in port. Since we are not fueling with it and we want to cool it’s a different thing. The proper intake manifold will distribute much better it’s properly injected properly. There’s just so many ways to do it. Ethanol is the way to go and air. Water is also quite nice but methanol has been proven. Done a certain way for many many years now on so many cars. We like it. But, of course there’s limits to everything. After a certain amount of methanol you start to get more dodgy. And if you’re doing port, it would either mean you need a crazy amount of it or you’re fueling at a high-level with it and that’s when things get even more dodgy. A good game plan with the team usually will put you in the right direction. I think this coming year there will be more cars running more streamlined systems and continue to advance this platform. The biggest issue remains keeping engines and transmissions together unlike the GTR and the Lamborghinis.
08-30-2023, 08:27 AM
