pepinozaur

Thanks for your answers Randy and Jean.

onfireTTS

Very impressive.

Jean

Randy, I tested the 19” on the turbo in time attack already and they worked great but its not PCCB. Once I test them on the RS with the caliper clearance challenge I will let you know..

Well of course it has Sam’s stage 4 and few other things

Pepinoazur, seeing how hardcore you are into track days I would probably consider a cup

Pdtp#16

Really depends on your ultimate use. It sounds like you are trying to move into a more competitive environment than just DE. When it comes to Time Trials I found that most, if not all, of the organizations running them will push you into limited or unlimited classes once you make any modifications to a 991 GT or turbo car. Moreover, its hard finding tires for our cars within those classes. For example, Global Time Attack runs Yokohama's which for the slicks, they do not come in or above19' inches and the street class is limited to 295 wide tires. The reason for this is that most of those classes and organizations for TT are more setup for different car types (mostly running 18" wheels and 295 and below width). I found that on my turbo all of the organizations pushed me into the Unlimited class due to my mods. At which point it requires a full cage, thus making it a full race car.

with that said, it looks like you are thinking about racing as well, therefore a full race car, or a least a full caged etc .car makes sense. Similarly to Time Trials you should do research what do you want to run as you want to make sure that you are competitive and have fun. Are you planning on running PCA type events? IGT? AER? HSR? A 991 Cup car is a lot of fun. Most people running them run sprint races and they are a lot of classes for this were you will be competitive (IMSA Porsche Cup Challenge, SRO Porsche Sprint Challenge, PCA of course, HSR has great historic events including the 24hr of Daytona and a Gen 1 would qualify). With that said, they also have some draw backs if not used for what they are intended for.

• For one, they were really designed as a stepping stone for young drivers before they jumped into the big boys (GT3 R or RSR). As such they don't have traction control or ABS. This makes them pretty tricky to drive at the limit, which in turns helps develop the driver into a much better racer. Without ABS these cars are really tricky to drive at the limit, thus requiring a very good setup and be track specific. To much front bias, inside front wheels lock, rear rear locks. When the whole field is having he same adversities, this is a lot of fun, but if you are running events with other cars that have ABS and traction control its not fun keeping up. Now a days you can get ABS on the Gen 2 and now Porsche is allowing the Gen 1 if you buy a specific ABS M5 module for your specific (VIN) car (18K). The Gen 1 can only run the Sprint Challenge with the ABS not sure what else.
• Running Costs are considerably higher than your street car or a street / race car version. This is where the clubsport has shined as it still runs some of the street running gear thus reducing some of the operating costs.

For what is worth, a client of TPC was in a similar predicament to you. He wanted to run AER Enduro Races and ended up buying a GT3 and converting it into a Cup Car. It was not cheap (A LOT more than a Cup Car), but his running costs are a 3rd of what it is to run the Cup Car and much easier to setup. Has ABS, Traction Control, Tractive Shocks DSC etc. He has been extremely competitive even breaking several lap records last year.

For the above reasons, I ended up deciding to keep my Turbo as a fun (crazy fast) DE car and very limited Time Trials due to the restriction above. I then bought a Cup Car specifically to do the Porsche Sprint Challenge. Depending how it goes this year i'll make a decision for next. It will either be turn my turbo into a full blown race car do TT's and AER; upgrade to 992 and Cup Challenge or focus on HSR with something cool like a 2 RS Clubsport or a 16 GT3R. Time will Tell!

Pdtp#16

Jean, this is what i enjoyed the most of running my Turbo. The ease of being able to show up to the track, throw some slicks and be as fast or almost as fast as anything out there. No teams, crazy setup time, coaching, testing etc. I wish they ran Time Attack events like this in the US. All of the hill climbs require full cage, no interior and no airbags, similarly most of the Time Attack organizations push you into unlimited with the changes we have made to our cars. With that said, most of the tracks we run and not as safe as Bahrain

Remember we need data 2RS / Turbo comp on track!

SamboTT@ByDesign

Great stuff guys!

Pdtp#16

This forum has been a bit quite! I guess winter has kept many at home and not on track. For those of us who like to track our street cars, I've been thinking for a while how safe is it, specially with how fast they currently are. Ever since i started my latest project on the turbo i've been debating if a full cage is warranted if i want to keep tracking the car. Ultimately i made the decision to buy a cup car and focus the turbo build for some time attacks from time to time. In doing so was going to limit the cage just to a half cage so that the car would retain some street capabilities and some sort of value. Not that the latter is vastly important, but it helps me justify my insane addiction of modifying this car

Either way, this weekend was the first race of the Porsche Sprint Challenge with USAC. My car ran great, was pretty competitive but ran into some bad love with debris. On race 1, was running P3 in class and P6 overall and with one lap to go under a double yellow, i had a piece of debris go through my center radiator. On race two was running P2 in class when i had a right rear tire blowout. Got lucky with the outcome, but could have been pretty bad as it happened on entry to bishops at about 130pmh. This off course now got me thinking again about the full cage or even continuing tracking my turbo, which once completed will be faster than my cup car.

see video below of the incident. As you can see my rear probably started loosing pressure earlier on as i started loosing right rear grip from turn 1 on.


Ultimately i spun enough to take most of the speed out, which limited the damage to a new front fender, left side radiator and some TLC to the wrap. So pretty minor all considered.

My point of this, is that this could have easily happened during a DE or Time Attack Event. Should we be considering full cages?

Wjm3

Challenge with full cages is you can’t run them on the street/without a helmet and 5 point Head injuries are likely there. So you need to find the right gear for the issue. That being said German engineering is pretty amazing usually and I am sure there are 911 videos of rolllovers and such without cages.

my old RS4 got sold to a buddy who has a rollover with it at a track day. He worked for go pro so the incident was well documented and now infamous. He walked away and the factory “cage” survived

https://www.quattrodaily.com/video-a...illow-springs/

So long story short you need to match the right safety equipment. Race cars are striped and cages with full harnesses and hans device's for a reason

Pdtp#16

I did ALOT of research on this due to my current build. From legality of the cage for street, removal of airbag systems, removable front cages (EU Manthey GT3 Cage, or Motorsport Cage), custom interior work around cage like a RUFF etc. At the end all of this paths got me to the same spot, once a proper cage is put in the car, the car IS a race car and not a street car. Thus the reason I had settled for a weld-in half cage, proper seats (Recaro P1300) and belts. While the combination of these measures along with Porsches OEM safety items are a significant improvement from what i used to track 20 years ago, i still question its ability to sustain a hard impact on a wall at significant speeds.

From the above video, you can see the significant amount of damage to the car from a roll over on grass with no other impact. He was traveling at a reasonable speed but nothing shattering. I think the bottom line, is that as we really start pushing these cars, the speeds on some tracks are substantial and some with very hard walls around it. Examples are, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, VIR, the Glen and let's not mention the EU. You can drive the Nürburgring practically with little to no safety equipment.

I guess it comes down to whether one is comfortable enough taking this risk, or is it better just to have proper race cars, even for time trials, and ditch tracking our street cars.

Masonbrick

I'm sorry this incident happened to you. That sucks. I wonder the same thing about cages. I've had a couple of 'moments' in my Turbo S during the last few track days I've attended. I think I may start driving another vehicle on track because of these questions.

onfireTTS

I drove this cage on the street. Would not recommend it. Crawling over the solid door bars got old....

Pdtp#16

Stuff happens on track. Its the nature of the beast. I got lucky this time. Damage was pretty minimal overall. I think DE events are great way to get into the sport and a great way for us to go to the track enjoy our cars at a very affordable level. However, what i'm starting to question is whether some of us who are pushing the limits pretty high with these very very fast street cars, are taking an unnecessary risk. For example, most folks driving Sebring on 3RS's, or even 2RS's are usually lapping in the high teens to low 20's. However, there are a handful of drivers that are tuning their cars, using slicks etc. and are pushing these street cars down into the 2,12's or less with no additional safety features. I have done a 2.11 on my turbo and i know the car is capable under its old format of a 2.10. There is a significant increase in risk, specially at a high speed track like Sebring. Some guys at VIR are flying down the straight hitting over 170mph on the straightaway and running crazy mph's through he essess. (Randy is a perfect example).

I love tracking my turbo, and will now have a significant investment into it. I'm in the process of finishing what will be a monster track car (way faster than my cup car) but unfortunately in my opinion with not enough safety features and its killing me. Ultimately i will have to make a decision of whether i sale it after completion, turn it into a proper race car with all of the safety features and have a car that its more affordable to run than a cup car but with no classes where to run it, or keep it as a street car and not track it. Like i said i don't like either one of the answers

Jean

Sorry to see this happening and glad you’re safe Pdtp! That car behind you got really close.

What you’re saying about street cars with half cage is what we always chose to ignore, yet there is no doubt it is a stupid risk. As you said, the minute you put a full cage, your car is not a street car anymore. I have considered the addition of the front half cage on the 991TT and the 2RS several times, but once I installed on my 993, I stopped driving it.

To be honest the tracks that you guys are driving and many others I drove in Europe are high risk tracks for modified street cars, an impact with a 3550-3600lbs car carries much higher inertia than a cup car and multiplies the risk. Looking at all the videos with those walls nearby and narrow grass run-offs makes me realize how lucky I am to have Grade 1 circuits I drive on for time attack, or my appetite for the sport would have been very different.

Stay safe and keep us posted on the monster’s progress!

Pdtp#16

I believe that was Tim Kezman. I have no idea how he avoided not hitting me. He was right on my rear bumper as i had lost a lot of time this lap from turn one onwards. Ultimately its racing. It did take a lot of my enthusiasm on my turbo project. The more i think about it, the less it makes sense from a safety stand point of view. And as you mentioned, we don't really have Grade 1 circuits in the US (except COTA and Thermal). At this point it is most likely that i'll finish the project with retaining all of the street comforts etc. and not turning it into a full blown time attack car. I just don't think it makes sense. If i wasn't committed to this racing season, and what will most likely be a 992 Cup for next year, i would go in the other direction but with my current commitments i just can't see myself doing it.

How is your season going? You still running the turbo or are you now fully focused on the 2RS? I saw Randy started a 992 Track Thread, and from reading git it seems like she will be a beast. The 92's were freakishly fast on the first test. They are running this week, but from what i saw, they are a good 5 - 6 seconds faster than the Gen 2 Cup on a 2min lap.

Big Swole

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