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On the street I’ve been able to go down to 32 cold so far without a light. It will warm up to 34/35. Car launches better, handles better and rides better.
Hung out at TPC with Tom and Mike today while they did my brakes (DS1.11’s) and tech inspection. Mike gave me a new tune that makes the power delivery more linear. Saw a GT2RS Clubsport in the wild. The difference between a street car vs. a proper factory race car is mega. Picked up an AIM solo 2 DL as well for PCA Potomac’s Mid summer DE beginning tomorrow.
Hung out at TPC with Tom and Mike today while they did my brakes (DS1.11’s) and tech inspection. Mike gave me a new tune that makes the power delivery more linear. Saw a GT2RS Clubsport in the wild. The difference between a street car vs. a proper factory race car is mega. Picked up an AIM solo 2 DL as well for PCA Potomac’s Mid summer DE beginning tomorrow.
Big THANKS for the pics of the CS. Interesting that the IC's are much larger x and y, but not much, if any thicker. Anyone have any specs on the CS IC's ?
Big THANKS for the pics of the CS. Interesting that the IC's are much larger x and y, but not much, if any thicker. Anyone have any specs on the CS IC's ?
CS intercoolers are a bit taller, MUCH wider (over 40%), and thinner than the stock IC.
CS intercoolers are a bit taller, MUCH wider (over 40%), and thinner than the stock IC.
I indeed have a better appreciation for the factory efforts in their race cars after getting a better look at them. The attention to detail is striking!
Ferodo's are great and work well with the stock rotors.
Gyrodisc you spend roughly $200 more per set initially, but thereafter its almost half the cost of swapping the stock rotors. As such i would wait until that happens and then you can make a decision of which way to go. If you are only doing 4-6 events a year i wouldn't worry about this too much. Stock rotors work fine BTW. I believe Jean still uses them on his car and he pushes it really hard.
Regarding ware, its varies A LOT on driver and track. For example, you can have a pro who is pushing the car really hard and braking really late and yet he might be easier on the brakes than a novice driver. Reason for this is the pro will have a lot of brake pressure upfront for a really short stint and then trail brake thereafter using not just the brakes to slow the car down but the tires and rotation. So while the initial brake pressure was much higher than what an amateur driver, they are off the brakes much quicker, less time on the brakes = less heat etc. An amateur might not push as much pressure on the brakes , say a third of the way, but for a much longer period generating a lot more heat and ware. If you are planning on tracking consistently you should include these as part of our consumables. I was able to get 3 track days out of my front pads and 4 track days out of my rears on Ferodo's and Gyro discs. Disc last me roughly 6 +/- track days. Keep in mind that FL can get pretty hot, sebring is tough on brakes and i'm running either slicks or trofeo r's. You should get a lot more usage on PS4's and up north where temperatures are cooler. I'm now running PFC's brakes and pads are wider so hopefully they last a little longer.
Cars have cooling vents on the floor of the car and on the lca's directing air into the brakes. They actually work well.
For what you are doing, stock rotors with ferodos and good temp fluid will work really well. I see on the picks that you are running the standard steel rotors from a non S car. If so, as you start pushing the car harder, you will need to remove the rubber dust boots. You will go through the dust boots in a couple of track sessions. Just make sure you properly service the calipers when installing new pads thereafter.
@Pdtp#16 - The Ferodos worked out very well. Compared to the stock ones, they definitely maintained the bite during the later laps where the brakes were hotter. When TPC did my tech, the guidance was that I'd be good with one more event but I'll likely need to replace the rotors afterwards. I have 6 DE's left this year (Shenandoah, Pitt Race, VIR, and 2 more on Summit Main) so I may pick up a set of Giro's or AP J-Hooks and pop them in before I head back out.
I desperately need a seat as I drove a majority of the sessions with my left leg jammed against the dead pedal to anchor my rear end into the seat so I can relax my shoulders and arms to steer.
Trying to find something that works with a 3 point belts is where I'm stuck as a proper racing seat would require a harness, hans, cage etc (my car is a road car first and foremost).
The weekend was a great learning experience they paired me with an instructor who knows the 991 platform well (he races a GT3 Cup and has a GT3 road car as well). We walked the track one night over a cigar and some whiskey which was great to understand the traction available and camber around the track. The highlight was the final day's 3rd session where an all-out downpour came - it gave me an opportunity to explore the track and rain lines. I mustered a 1:24.89 as the fastest lap of the weekend but was consistently floating between 1:29-1:32.
Since the old days, Porsche motorsports on their 993GT2EVOs, used highly efficient cores that were large and thin, filling the whole engine bay. Tuners couldn't replicate that, given the very high cost (tens of thousands of USD) of those cores, so the solution was to use much thicker and cheaper cores (less fin density and metallurgical quality), and bench data showed increased volume and better airflow, which was marketed as more efficient. Not really true.
On the circuit, tuned 993 turbos were all using fixed boost control, so when IAT temps were going crazy, knock sensing pulled timing as much as the ECU could handle, but the fixed boost kept the performance going and showing great acceleration numbers, this resulted in heads leaking and damaged, broken rods and piston rings, blow-by etc after a few thousand miles. Other tuners using factory program with variable boost control (FVD, Cargraphic and the likes) had worse performance numbers obviously, since boost was pulled back by the ECU in tandem with timing protecting the engine, but the engines lasted much longer.
Today's tunes also use fixed boost through the DME tables (boost does not get pulled back by the DME for protection), but electronics are much more advanced and the engine has many ways of protecting itself, yet the thermodynamics principles remain the same. A high quality core with larger surface and less thickness will always beat a thicker and lower quality core.
Factory Motorsport GT2EVO core size and thickness
Aftermarket core thickness. On a bench these can show better results, given lesser density and larger volume.
12-13 years ago we were already discussing this:
Originally Posted by Jean
I think that one needs to be aware that you get exponential fresh airflow as speed increases, bigger and thicker cores do a better job at keeping the temps down in presence of strong airflow, and the opposite is true as well, a thinner core does a better cooling job at lower speeds, such as on the track, since the amount of hot air inside the cores takes less time to be evacuated.
Jean,
Thanks for sharing the pictures; it draws a very clear contrast in your point. I had a number of conversations this past weekend with a number of folks who are pretty involved in the Porsche factory racing program and they shared a similar sentiment around the aftermarket tuners in that none of them have done the R&D like Porsche has.
Candidly, it has me questioning some of the existing modifications I've done to my car.
Candidly, it has me questioning some of the existing modifications I've done to my car.
The TT/TTS is different from the GT cars, Kong. They are tuned for more of a balance of street work than track, and some of the aftermarket stuff does make a difference on that platform. Brake rotors, for example: PCCB is great for track and street, but they wear out after about 30-40 track days and are $25k to replace. That's great and everything, but not worth it. Changing to steel Girodiscs or AP or some other solutions is cheaper and just as effective (when combined with a more aggressive pad like the Ferrodo DS3.12), and worth it in my book. Even if you have Porsche steel rotors, Girodisc last longer and perform identically, plus they are a hell of a lot cheaper over the long haul.
The other thing is safety. Never feel bad about increasing the safety of your car beyond stock. (As a short term solution to go along with your 3-point belt, try CG Lock as an interim helper) Porsche may know how to do things, but that does not mean they do them on the TT or TTS.
ECU tunes are nice for the street, but they overheat quickly during DE and and really not worth it for a track day use. Sam pretty much agreed - they cannot keep the engine cool enough to benefit from the tunes he adds after a hot lap or so.
Bottom line, keep working on the driver, add safety, and then you'll get the most real benefit from tires and a cheaper/better brake solution. After that, for the TTS the DSCbox helps....but don't get too far down the path with ECU tunes or engine mods for track use.
The TTS is different from the GT cars, Kong. They are tuned for more of a balance of street work than track, and some of the aftermarket stuff does make a difference on that platform. Brake rotors, for example: PCCB is great for track and street, but they wear out after about 30-40 track days and are $25k to replace. That's great and everything, but not worth it. Changing to steel Girodiscs or AP or some other solutions is cheaper and just as effective (when combined with a more aggressive pad like the Ferrodo DS3.12), and worth it in my book. Even if you have Porsche steel rotors, Girodisc last longer and perform identically.
The other thing is safety. Never feel bad about increasing the safety of your car beyond stock. (As a short term solution to go along with your 3-point belt, try CG Lock as an interim helper) Porsche may know how to do things, but that does not mean they do them on the TTS.
ECU tunes are nice for the street, but they overheat quickly during DE and and really not worth it for a track day use. Sam pretty much agreed - they cannot keep the engine cool enough to benefit from the tunes he adds after a lap or so.
Bottom line, keep working on the driver, add safety, and then you'll get the most real benefit from tires and a cheaper/better brake solution. After that, for the TTS the DSCbox helps....but don't get too far down the path with ECU tunes or engine mods for track use.
I appreciate your note Randy - I've arrived at a similar conclusion around modifications and focusing more on the seat time and brakes. The last few track days have been great to "tighten the loose nut behind the wheel". The DSC box has been awesome (you should know you were a contributing factor in me picking one up). I'm considering pulling the Kline inconel manifolds and exhaust off and selling them as I'd rather put the money towards something else like brakes or a seat.
07-07-2020, 10:17 AM
