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I can see why they would go into Formula E from a technological standpoint. But marketing wise, and spectator wise it is ridiculous. NOBODY will ever watch that crap !
I'm not sure how closely you follow WEC, but the facts speak for themselves. Facts that must be considered by Porsche as they plan for next year.
Obviously Porsche won the day... with a car that spent over an hour in the pits. No one on their team would not admit to that being lucky. Meanwhile Toyota's fastest 210 laps (two thirds of the race) were consistently ~2 seconds faster than Porsche's fastest 210 laps. Planning a race around the same thing happening again next year is planning for failure, particularly as Toyota's teething troubles will be behind them. Porsche knows this, and they know they need pace if they seriously hope to win again.
Reports are that neither a new engine, hybrid system, chassis or battery are planned for next year- if true Porsche has thrown in the towel.
I follow WEC quite closely - I've watched the entirety of every race in which Porsche has competed in LMP1 since 2014, and I follow the typical news sources every day. I was at the COTA race last year and will be there again this year most likely.
Of course - if you follow WEC as closely as I do - you will no doubt be aware that Porsche has just now finished the 6 Hour Nurburgring race with a commanding 1-2 performance in LMP1, even after Toyota #7 pipped them for the pole. The other Toyota TS050 - the car which you claim is superior to the current iteration of the 919 - suffered a water pump issue on the formation lap, finishing laps down.
Would you mind elaborating a bit? I'm pretty sure I know what you're implying but I want to make sure.
production model decisions
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
Because electric motors are the future.
meh, they can keep their electric motors. they have a long way to go before they can match ICE's on multiple levels. there are many other means to meet upcoming emission and mileage standards and I suspect we'd being seeing a very different mix were the heavy hand of government not leaning on the scales open market solutions.
I follow WEC quite closely - I've watched the entirety of every race in which Porsche has competed in LMP1 since 2014, and I follow the typical news sources every day. I was at the COTA race last year and will be there again this year most likely.
Of course - if you follow WEC as closely as I do - you will no doubt be aware that Porsche has just now finished the 6 Hour Nurburgring race with a commanding 1-2 performance in LMP1, even after Toyota #7 pipped them for the pole. The other Toyota TS050 - the car which you claim is superior to the current iteration of the 919 - suffered a water pump issue on the formation lap, finishing laps down.
Seems the high downforce package was a huge step forward. My guess is there were other steps o the car for this race than just the aero.
I'm not sure how closely you follow WEC, but the facts speak for themselves. Facts that must be considered by Porsche as they plan for next year.
Obviously Porsche won the day... with a car that spent over an hour in the pits. No one on their team would not admit to that being lucky. Meanwhile Toyota's fastest 210 laps (two thirds of the race) were consistently ~2 seconds faster than Porsche's fastest 210 laps. Planning a race around the same thing happening again next year is planning for failure, particularly as Toyota's teething troubles will be behind them. Porsche knows this, and they know they need pace if they seriously hope to win again.
Reports are that neither a new engine, hybrid system, chassis or battery are planned for next year- if true Porsche has thrown in the towel.
Nope, they never thought it was luck at all.
The win was a team effort this time around, including the mechanics.
The winning car had to replace a complete front axle, that's a 2 hour job that the Porsche mechanics did it in record time, just over an hour.
The 2nd place Toyota also suffered the exact same problem, but their mechanics did the job in exactly 2 hours the prescribed time.
That's the margin of victory right there.
As for the other Toyota that had the clutch problem, well that as down to inexperience on Toyota's part. They skimmed on the clutch's construction to save weight, and that clutch can't do 2 static launches in a row, that's why it over heat as Toyota had planned on there are time to cool down the clutch before it is needed again.
Porsche was just so much more prepared for endurance racing that they had not made the same mistakes Toyota did.
Same thing happened last year too, Toyota skimmed on a el cheapo part, the hose clamp, and it failed within sight of the finish line.
Seems the high downforce package was a huge step forward. My guess is there were other steps o the car for this race than just the aero.
Recall that Toyota introduced their HDF kit at the expected time - Silverstone, which is another track at which HDF kits would be very strong. Porsche took the calculated risk of introducing their HDF kit AFTER Le Mans, and it has paid off for them.
Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
Fuel pump, if it actually matters.
My mistake, was writing on my phone as the race ended.
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Nope, they never thought it was luck at all.
The win was a team effort this time around, including the mechanics.
The winning car had to replace a complete front axle, that's a 2 hour job that the Porsche mechanics did it in record time, just over an hour.
The 2nd place Toyota also suffered the exact same problem, but their mechanics did the job in exactly 2 hours the prescribed time.
That's the margin of victory right there.
As for the other Toyota that had the clutch problem, well that as down to inexperience on Toyota's part. They skimmed on the clutch's construction to save weight, and that clutch can't do 2 static launches in a row, that's why it over heat as Toyota had planned on there are time to cool down the clutch before it is needed again.
Porsche was just so much more prepared for endurance racing that they had not made the same mistakes Toyota did.
Same thing happened last year too, Toyota skimmed on a el cheapo part, the hose clamp, and it failed within sight of the finish line.
There is an earlier post in this thread from Petevb who is typically very thoughtful and considerate that illustrates that he doesn't understand endurance racing particularly well.
Porsche understand endurance racing quite well, which is why they have achieved:
19 Le Mans victories
2015, 2016, 2017 victories vs. "superior" (ie, potentially faster) cars
2015, 2016, an likely 2017 FIA WEC Manufacturers and Drivers Titles
In addition to the evident advantages Porsche enjoys in terms of reliability, serviceability, and strategy, they have much stronger driver lineups:
Every Porsche LMP1 driver has won Le Mans overall (Bernhard 2x, Bamber 2x, Lotterer 3x), whereas none of the 9 Toyota LMP1 drivers have ever won the race (!)
Nick - of all the interesting stuff you get to do with Porsche, I am most of jealous of you getting the opportunity to attend Le Mans with deep access
Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
This years Le Mans would make an awesome Truth in 24 III
LMP1 is a joke now - 2 teams racing so you have a 50% chance of winning just by showing up. It's a dead classification IMO, 2 teams doesn't make a world class sport to me.
LMP1 is a joke now - 2 teams racing so you have a 50% chance of winning just by showing up. It's a dead classification IMO, 2 teams doesn't make a world class sport to me.
You make a legitimate point, but I find the racing absolutely captivating; drivers of that include:
Diverse, multi-class racing with pronounced closing speeds
Variety of strategic options
Generally more sophisticated, nuanced commentary on the WEC app (dreadful Toby Moody notwithstanding); much rather have the likes of Allan McNish or - in latter years - John Hindhaugh commentating vs. the atonal banalities that Leigh Diffey vomits on F1 fans every fortnight
LMP1 is a joke now - 2 teams racing so you have a 50% chance of winning just by showing up. It's a dead classification IMO, 2 teams doesn't make a world class sport to me.
With all this talk of Porsche pulling out of LMP1, and perhaps on their way to Formula E (vomit), would Porsche just focus on GT racing, pore lots of resources into Formula E, or go ***** out into F1 (highly unlikely, but I could see them doing an engine supply deal, after all much of the development has been made with the V4 that could be adapted for a V6 F1 with all its systems as most of the tech is already interchangeable)? Where does this leave Porsche in future of Motorsports... something to chew on.
There is an earlier post in this thread from Petevb who is typically very thoughtful and considerate that illustrates that he doesn't understand endurance racing particularly well.
I call it like I see it. The distance completed by the wining car was enough to win just two of the prior eleven races despite faster cars and excellent conditions. Both qualifying and race pace was lacking. Porsche's ability to win relied on others failing or making mistakes- they were never in control of their own destiny.
Yes their preparation and hard work allowed them to win, and in particular allowed them to come back despite odds stacked against them. Yes winning Le Mans in any way takes tremendous skill. In this case, however, it also took a lot of luck.
I have a close friend who worked endurance racing for years, first designing group C cars and then as a lead race engineer for Brumos Porsche. "Wow they got lucky" was the first thing he said to me after the race. They need to do better.
I call it like I see it. The distance completed by the wining car was enough to win just two of the prior eleven races despite faster cars and excellent conditions. Both qualifying and race pace was lacking. Porsche's ability to win relied on others failing or making mistakes- they were never in control of their own destiny.
Yes their preparation and hard work allowed them to win, and in particular allowed them to come back despite odds stacked against them. Yes winning Le Mans in any way takes tremendous skill. In this case, however, it also took a lot of luck.
I have a close friend who worked endurance racing for years, first designing group C cars and then as a lead race engineer for Brumos Porsche. "Wow they got lucky" was the first thing he said to me after the race. They need to do better.
Again - not sure how closely you watch or keep up with the WEC - but if you follow as closely as I do, you no doubt would have watched the 6H Nurburgring race on Sunday, in which Porsche exhibited a commanding performance after the #8 Toyota suffered an early failure (finishing laps down) and the pole sitting #7 Toyota was ... vastly slower on race pace.
07-16-2017, 05:11 AM
