2017 LeMans
06-20-2017, 05:48 PM
#211
06-20-2017, 06:15 PM
#212
Originally Posted by Archimedes
Except everyone knows about Formula 1 and almost nobody except rabid race fans even know what LMP is...
06-20-2017, 06:33 PM
#213
Drifting
919 never raced at Daytona...
There are a numerous of reasons why the LMP1 effort is of greater import than GT-based racing; a few:
Prestige of overall victory
Development of future technology
When Porsche puts together a 2-3 minute video (probably out this week) illustrating their achievement at Le Mans this year, they will almost certainly describe the 919 as facilitating the journey toward the "sports car of the future"
Porsche has the largest commitment to endurance racing of any manufacturer! How can you criticize their dedication to this form of motorsport?
Aston Martin - GT Only; too cheap to pay IMSA fees so race in WEC only
Audi - Customer GT racing only
BMW - Returning to WEC next year with all new car
Ferrari - GT only
Ford - 4 GT cars across IMSA and WEC, but no prototype effort
GM - IMSA only, except for the Corvettes at Le Mans
Lambo - Customer GT racing only
McLaren - No presence in elite sports car or endurance racing
Mercedes - Customer GT racing only; will never race at Le Mans again after 1955 and 1999 events
Nissan - Pulled out after DISASTROUS 2015 performance
Toyota - LMP1 Only
The 92 RSR was leading the class overnight before Michael Christensen wrecked it near pit in. The 91 RSR had various small issues that prevented it from being in contention for overall victory.
Further, see my below comment on BOP.
Porsche received an 8 kg / 17 lb weight break prior to the race, but after qualifying.
Despite what various fanbois will say, the BOP was as equitable as could be reasonably expected. Every manufacturer led in GTE Pro, and the race went down to the wire.
There are a numerous of reasons why the LMP1 effort is of greater import than GT-based racing; a few:
Prestige of overall victory
Development of future technology
When Porsche puts together a 2-3 minute video (probably out this week) illustrating their achievement at Le Mans this year, they will almost certainly describe the 919 as facilitating the journey toward the "sports car of the future"
Porsche has the largest commitment to endurance racing of any manufacturer! How can you criticize their dedication to this form of motorsport?
Aston Martin - GT Only; too cheap to pay IMSA fees so race in WEC only
Audi - Customer GT racing only
BMW - Returning to WEC next year with all new car
Ferrari - GT only
Ford - 4 GT cars across IMSA and WEC, but no prototype effort
GM - IMSA only, except for the Corvettes at Le Mans
Lambo - Customer GT racing only
McLaren - No presence in elite sports car or endurance racing
Mercedes - Customer GT racing only; will never race at Le Mans again after 1955 and 1999 events
Nissan - Pulled out after DISASTROUS 2015 performance
Toyota - LMP1 Only
The 92 RSR was leading the class overnight before Michael Christensen wrecked it near pit in. The 91 RSR had various small issues that prevented it from being in contention for overall victory.
Further, see my below comment on BOP.
Porsche received an 8 kg / 17 lb weight break prior to the race, but after qualifying.
Despite what various fanbois will say, the BOP was as equitable as could be reasonably expected. Every manufacturer led in GTE Pro, and the race went down to the wire.
For the many critics who've questioned the value that Porsche derives from investing such resources at Le Mans, watch to the end and you'll notice that the last few words are "the sports car of the future," just as I anticipated yesterday.
The 911 RSR is - although racing today - in many ways the sports car of the past. The most modern and advanced development of which, no doubt, but still the sports car of the past.
06-20-2017, 08:38 PM
#214
Rennlist Member
So everyone knows f1. You wouldn't change your mind if Porsche decides to do f1 and is successful? Yes not much exposure regarding lmp1 prototype cars but I'm happy as hell they won whatever happened during the race. 24 hrs lemans is the epitome of endurance racing. Mike
06-20-2017, 10:03 PM
#215
This thread provokes so many thoughts. Here are two.
1) The concept of the LMP vs the GT racing
Used to be that GT racing literally meant you drove a car off the showroom floor, put some stickers on it, maybe some tires and a cage, and drove it to the track. This is Porsche’s roots going all the way back to the 356. The RSR came about in 1973 and was a jumped up version of the 2.7 RS. The newer RSRs used to be a heavily jumped up version of the Cup which was a GT3 modified for racing. However, things like engine block architecture/suspension geometry/gearbox (presequential) remained the same.
Now, GT racing is like the silhouette racing from the 80s where the cars simply look like their street variants (in most cases). They don't use common parts and the technology transfer is not nearly as relevant. I believe (willing to be corrected) that you could turn a 996 or 997 GT3 into an RSR with a lot of money and some comfort compromises. Now, it’s not nearly as easy. The 991’s front suspension geometry was completely different from that in the street car and the newest one is mid-engined. So I don’t think that you can say “this is relevant to my interests and LMP is not” because I would say that the rules are putting a particular strain on the direct correlation between road and race in a car like the 911.
The LMP program is to win Le Mans, market the brand, serve as a laboratory for new tech which we all know is coming into our road cars, and to, like F1, showcase the management style/corporate ethos of the brand. Take the 919’s batteries. My understanding is that they will be the same ones in the Mission E just as the brakes in the 930 came right off the 917. I like that. Even the way that Porsche bothered to tune their street-going turbo engines once they had modern ECUs, to not heat soak under extreme autobahn and track use, came from their knowledge of how the cars worked under load. Porsche continues to be one of the only brands of car that can be driven to a race track and abused without breaking. To tackle that challenge at the highest level excites me.
Furthermore, and this is something that I don’t know that you get as often (maybe at all?), guys in the race division will participate in road car development. Hans Mezger designed the 917’s engine, then designed the Mezger six which went into street production. To have THAT GUY who built part of THAT RACE CAR design the component in your street car is too cool. I wish there was more of this and it is my hope that this link still exists.
2) GT Racing BOP
Commentators at Le Mans hit the nail on the head. The GT cars make their lap times in different ways. The agility the RSR has might offset the smaller torque curve and the aero might mitigate top speed issues. The BOP is something I personally hate though. People consider it a necessary evil. I think that the BOP has, in the past, given each manufacturer an unintentional advantage during certain parts of the season that they then reign in. Who won the championship has been a function of who has the advantage the longest and who makes the most of it while their car is quick. Personally, I would rather watch slower cars that are more like the ones that we could buy. Think about this set of rules for a minute:
- Manufacturer must sell __ number of cars to be able to race.
- Cars must have the exact same bodywork as the street cars but for the addition of side skirts, a front spoiler, and a rear wing.
- All cars must use the same suspension geometry and pickup points that are within __% of the ones in the street car. They can run any tire size and brake size they can fit within the standard bodywork
- Engines must maintain their standard aspiration AND meet emission requirements (to keep power in check) running on unleaded race fuel. No restrictors.
- Safety equipment like a cage are allowed to be fitted.
- You can fit the biggest fuel tank in the car that you can.
- Tires are to be produced to fit the car’s needs by a manufacturer. If Michelin have a better relationship with Porsche than they do with Corvette and a manufacturer starts gaining an advantage because of it, tough. We're already seeing manufacturers ask for special one-off tires for Nring times.
- All parts, including the roll cage, must be made available in a manufacturer’s parts catalogue to street car owners. Theoretically, you should be able to turn your street car into the race car the factory is producing with enough money and insanity.
- Cars must be sold under a certain price (car + parts that improve it beyond standard street car). Make it big enough so Ferrari can play but not so big that you get the GT1/CLK GTR/Mclaren F1 of the 90s where it's all $1M+.
THAT would be a series worth seeing IMO. Talk about road relevance.
1) The concept of the LMP vs the GT racing
Used to be that GT racing literally meant you drove a car off the showroom floor, put some stickers on it, maybe some tires and a cage, and drove it to the track. This is Porsche’s roots going all the way back to the 356. The RSR came about in 1973 and was a jumped up version of the 2.7 RS. The newer RSRs used to be a heavily jumped up version of the Cup which was a GT3 modified for racing. However, things like engine block architecture/suspension geometry/gearbox (presequential) remained the same.
Now, GT racing is like the silhouette racing from the 80s where the cars simply look like their street variants (in most cases). They don't use common parts and the technology transfer is not nearly as relevant. I believe (willing to be corrected) that you could turn a 996 or 997 GT3 into an RSR with a lot of money and some comfort compromises. Now, it’s not nearly as easy. The 991’s front suspension geometry was completely different from that in the street car and the newest one is mid-engined. So I don’t think that you can say “this is relevant to my interests and LMP is not” because I would say that the rules are putting a particular strain on the direct correlation between road and race in a car like the 911.
The LMP program is to win Le Mans, market the brand, serve as a laboratory for new tech which we all know is coming into our road cars, and to, like F1, showcase the management style/corporate ethos of the brand. Take the 919’s batteries. My understanding is that they will be the same ones in the Mission E just as the brakes in the 930 came right off the 917. I like that. Even the way that Porsche bothered to tune their street-going turbo engines once they had modern ECUs, to not heat soak under extreme autobahn and track use, came from their knowledge of how the cars worked under load. Porsche continues to be one of the only brands of car that can be driven to a race track and abused without breaking. To tackle that challenge at the highest level excites me.
Furthermore, and this is something that I don’t know that you get as often (maybe at all?), guys in the race division will participate in road car development. Hans Mezger designed the 917’s engine, then designed the Mezger six which went into street production. To have THAT GUY who built part of THAT RACE CAR design the component in your street car is too cool. I wish there was more of this and it is my hope that this link still exists.
2) GT Racing BOP
Commentators at Le Mans hit the nail on the head. The GT cars make their lap times in different ways. The agility the RSR has might offset the smaller torque curve and the aero might mitigate top speed issues. The BOP is something I personally hate though. People consider it a necessary evil. I think that the BOP has, in the past, given each manufacturer an unintentional advantage during certain parts of the season that they then reign in. Who won the championship has been a function of who has the advantage the longest and who makes the most of it while their car is quick. Personally, I would rather watch slower cars that are more like the ones that we could buy. Think about this set of rules for a minute:
- Manufacturer must sell __ number of cars to be able to race.
- Cars must have the exact same bodywork as the street cars but for the addition of side skirts, a front spoiler, and a rear wing.
- All cars must use the same suspension geometry and pickup points that are within __% of the ones in the street car. They can run any tire size and brake size they can fit within the standard bodywork
- Engines must maintain their standard aspiration AND meet emission requirements (to keep power in check) running on unleaded race fuel. No restrictors.
- Safety equipment like a cage are allowed to be fitted.
- You can fit the biggest fuel tank in the car that you can.
- Tires are to be produced to fit the car’s needs by a manufacturer. If Michelin have a better relationship with Porsche than they do with Corvette and a manufacturer starts gaining an advantage because of it, tough. We're already seeing manufacturers ask for special one-off tires for Nring times.
- All parts, including the roll cage, must be made available in a manufacturer’s parts catalogue to street car owners. Theoretically, you should be able to turn your street car into the race car the factory is producing with enough money and insanity.
- Cars must be sold under a certain price (car + parts that improve it beyond standard street car). Make it big enough so Ferrari can play but not so big that you get the GT1/CLK GTR/Mclaren F1 of the 90s where it's all $1M+.
THAT would be a series worth seeing IMO. Talk about road relevance.
Last edited by enduro911; 06-20-2017 at 10:42 PM.
06-20-2017, 10:18 PM
#216
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I'm actually surprised that not everyone is excited about Porsche's win at LeMans. Those that have read my posts would know I'm far from a kool aid drinker,but I think this is absolutely great for the brand in all aspects,especially considering Porsche's history at LeMans! I think it benefits them greatly and many manufacturers would love to be in Porsche's position.
06-20-2017, 10:24 PM
#217
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I'm actually surprised that not everyone is excited about Porsche's win at LeMans. Those that have read my posts would know I'm far from a kool aid drinker,but I think this is absolutely great for the brand in all aspects,especially considering Porsche's history at LeMans! I think it benefits them greatly and many manufacturers would love to be in Porsche's position.
06-20-2017, 10:34 PM
#218
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hah! Sit at a Porsche dealer and ask the first 10 customers that walk in the dealership:
1) Who won LeMans this year?
2) What car won LeMans this year?
3) What was the last race you watched where a 911 variant won?
I'll bet you the answer from 9 out of 10 will be:
1) No idea, maybe Porsche since you're asking me in a Porsche dealership?
2) No idea
3) Can't remember the last time I saw a 911 win a race.
1) Who won LeMans this year?
2) What car won LeMans this year?
3) What was the last race you watched where a 911 variant won?
I'll bet you the answer from 9 out of 10 will be:
1) No idea, maybe Porsche since you're asking me in a Porsche dealership?
2) No idea
3) Can't remember the last time I saw a 911 win a race.
I'd be very surprised if it was above 50%, if the respondents were picked at random.
06-20-2017, 10:36 PM
#219
Rennlist Member
A few took a negative tone, mostly relative to why bother with LMP. I think it's great they won but to me feels a little hollow given the Toyota failures (like last year) - and yes, I know it is part of endurance racing. Also wish the RSRs would have shown better, but hope to see the platform develop and flourish.
I dislike (understatement) BOP. Easy to manipulate and too much politics involved in it.
I dislike (understatement) BOP. Easy to manipulate and too much politics involved in it.
06-20-2017, 10:46 PM
#220
Drifting
Without BOP the 911 would not be competitive.
BOP is seen in a variety of series and is designed to:
Keep costs somewhat reasonable
Facilitate a diversity of participation from various manufacturers - front engine, mid engine, rear engine; 6, 8, 10 cylinder; NA, FI, etc.
GTE Pro BOP at Le Mans was quite equitable overall. Every manufacturer led and had the ability to win. Michael Christensen wrecked the class leading 92 car.
BOP is seen in a variety of series and is designed to:
Keep costs somewhat reasonable
Facilitate a diversity of participation from various manufacturers - front engine, mid engine, rear engine; 6, 8, 10 cylinder; NA, FI, etc.
GTE Pro BOP at Le Mans was quite equitable overall. Every manufacturer led and had the ability to win. Michael Christensen wrecked the class leading 92 car.
06-21-2017, 04:51 AM
#221
Three Wheelin'
Here is a different thought on BOP. To me it looks like the application of BOP is trying to equalize the drivers not the cars. The powers that be have stated they want all cars to be with a certain .x seconds of each other per lap.
Why don't they say well you are allowed xBHP/lb and you deal with the rest.
The RSR is wickedly fast through the turns but its smallish engine keeps it from being faster in the straights.
In my simplistic world the manufacturers would have to work to find more speed since the only adjustment would be power/weight ratio.
The way it is now the ruling body finds ways to help those teams that do not to spend by giving them artificial advantages. Conversely they penalize those that have done their homework. If anyone wants to compete let the them find speed, do not hand it to them.
Again I recognize they want more cars on the grid so the BOP game is played.
Why don't they say well you are allowed xBHP/lb and you deal with the rest.
The RSR is wickedly fast through the turns but its smallish engine keeps it from being faster in the straights.
In my simplistic world the manufacturers would have to work to find more speed since the only adjustment would be power/weight ratio.
The way it is now the ruling body finds ways to help those teams that do not to spend by giving them artificial advantages. Conversely they penalize those that have done their homework. If anyone wants to compete let the them find speed, do not hand it to them.
Again I recognize they want more cars on the grid so the BOP game is played.
06-21-2017, 07:30 AM
#222
Three Wheelin'
To me it is very simple. People buy Porsches because of the image. And while they cannot name who won Le mans nor with what car, you can't get past the fact that this DOES build the image ! The general image, that gets spread around the globe, that infects people, and drives them to buy Porsches !
06-21-2017, 08:57 AM
#223
I might be wrong but I feel that Porsche did not deserve it 100%. VW pulled the plug for Audi LMP continuous successes and I feel that Porsche just put their sticker on Audi car. Have I missed by a lot with the above statement?
06-21-2017, 09:09 AM
#224
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by qbix
I might be wrong but I feel that Porsche did not deserve it 100%. VW pulled the plug for Audi LMP continuous successes and I feel that Porsche just put their sticker on Audi car. Have I missed by a lot with the above statement?
06-21-2017, 09:45 AM
#225
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