Argon_

This.

JasonAndreas

One of the badges of honor worn by those at Porsche Motorsports is that they developed just about everything in-house for the 919 (minus the batteries) while Audi took the exact opposite approach over the years and purchased just about everything for their LMP1 entries...

tcsracing1

Porsche Macan is decent as the entry/exit height is ideal. Some folks do not want to sit on the ground.
The Cayenne works for snowbelt areas where clearance is an issue as is utlity of a chassis for towing.

The new Pamamera Gran Turismo gives the wagon you are looking for.

Argon_

You seem to be missing my point. I know that from an economic perspective, ULVs are great. They sell faster than alcohol at a club.

My point is that trying to make a ULV that handles well is a pointless battle against the laws of physics that could much more easily be won by lowering the vehicle.

And as for the Panamera wagon, while it's a step in the right direction, it's certainly not the ideal. It's a massive car, and twice as expensive as the Macan.

Imagine a wagon/sedan platform that seats 4 normal sized people, has RWD, a stick, lively steering, and not a hint of understeer. Oh wait, that's an E90 M3 sedan/wagon. Damn shame they never made the wagon.

As for the snowbelt issue, plows keep the snow less than three inches thick (I live in the snowbelt).


EDIT: I'm going to stop digressing now. Last derailment post.

tcsracing1: if you want to keep discussing this, then I could start a thread.

Argon_

accidental double post

isv

^this. BoP exists for a good reason which is to allow the diversity of cars to compete on a reasonably equal footing (governing body collusion like for last year on the Ford excluded) and having a sustainable race series for GT cars would be utterly impossible without it as the costs would go completely out of control.

Nizer

Agreed. OTOH I bet a few read the Wall Street Journal. Page 5 today...
.

tcsracing1

I totally get your point. SUV's go against the laws of physics and yet everybody cannot get enough of them for all the wrong reasons.
With that being said, they do somewhat have their purpose for some buyers.

A Cayenne has the towing capacity, 4 wheel drive system and ground clearance to provide utility that a wagon just cannot offer while maintaining some decent road mannors compared to a tahoe or grand cherokee.

You find me a wagon that i can tow my race car with on saturday, go camping deep offroad on a sunday and to the office on monday and i would say you have a valid point.

I live far north and find it amusing when folks south of the border feel Suv's are obsolete in regards to fuel economy and laws of physics and assume they have no place in the market.

Yes, some manufactures feed off the SUV market for their customers who do not require them, but that is not to say they are all obsolete in terms of functionality.

tcsracing1

Marketing 101 right there.

Whoopsy

To be fair, the 919 runs the hybrid system at 800V, a testing bed for the 800V Mission E electric system.

All other Porsche hybrids runs theirs at 400V.

tcsracing1

+1

randr

The WSJ add is great - factually correct etc

but.........

All of us that follow endurance racing or are active in Motor Sport understand the following

(1) The Toyotas were significantly quicker for two years in a row and Porsche got the Bradbury win - nothing wrong in this, they were there, they competed, fought and survived. They are to be congratulated for this. Non the less the race was about Toyotas loss as opposed to Porsche' win.

(2) The RSR was not really competitive, that was plain to see and has not really been in the race all season (Last place in WEC GT standings)- close, sure - but no cigar. Guest89 the Dane clearly over drove the car hence his off - you over drive to compensate for underperformance. As a driver he would know this. I did the very same thing yesterday and have the bill to pay as a driver I accept this.

(3) Porsche sports cars, in reality, remain great club racers - in fact very hard to beat. Robust, well made eminently driveable and great fun. In my opinion, Porsche sports cars set a very (all round) high bench mark.

(4) To be genuinely competitive in GTEpro requires a new engine - no question about this. BOP is BOP and to some degree creates a lottery outcome - BOP may "equalise" times but thats not the point - its where the times are equalised that counts. We all know and understand this - the only way to win is to ensure all aspects of the car are strong e.g. brakes, weight, aero, ENGINE, tires, reliability and drivers.

BryanCO

Re the WSJ add - the add isn't targeted at all of us that follow endurance racing or are active in Motor Sports.

While your other points may be valid, they don't matter in the context of the add.

randr

^^^ I know The ad will help sell a truck load of Macans, Cayennes, Caymans and Carreras. Porsche = winner with a future.

However, for me personally I see past the imagery and understand the back story.

In my own mind, I have come to a decision unless Porsche put the engine in front of the rear axle on a production version of the GT3/GT3 RS I'm unlikely to buy one - in some respects I am looking to a car of the future and not of the past. The 911 platform has to evolve. Failing in WEC GT, even with the tacit acknowledgement of an engine move looks like a rear guard action for the 911. I am not seeing or sensing innovation.

What does this mean for me - it means I'm pulling my deposit on the .2RS. I've been on the fence for quite a long time, had a very hard think about the .2 GT3 but can't square the circle. This thread has been useful in that regard.

Other manufacturers are progressively building better and better performance vehicles and innovating at the same time e.g. McLaren. I sense Porsche, although currently very profitable, may be headed for an unsettled period.

What has this to do with Le Mans - the imagery belies the reality and this will ultimately have consequences in the market place - longer term.

isv

Are you seriously basing your buying decision of a road car on the racing success or otherwise of cars that are essentially so different from the road going cars they are supposedly homologated on that it's more or less simply silhouette racing?

The GT cars are great road cars with the capability of being tracked considerably harder than cars of most other marques (I'll ignore the 991.1gt3 engine travails for the moment). Whatever happens in GTE class racing/WEC has little to nothing to do with how good the road cars are or will be in the future.