2017 LeMans
#226
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This thread provokes so many thoughts. Here are two.
1) The concept of the LMP vs the GT racing
Used to be that GT racing literally meant you drove a car off the showroom floor, put some stickers on it, maybe some tires and a cage, and drove it to the track. This is Porsche’s roots going all the way back to the 356. The RSR came about in 1973 and was a jumped up version of the 2.7 RS. The newer RSRs used to be a heavily jumped up version of the Cup which was a GT3 modified for racing. However, things like engine block architecture/suspension geometry/gearbox (presequential) remained the same.
Now, GT racing is like the silhouette racing from the 80s where the cars simply look like their street variants (in most cases). They don't use common parts and the technology transfer is not nearly as relevant. I believe (willing to be corrected) that you could turn a 996 or 997 GT3 into an RSR with a lot of money and some comfort compromises. Now, it’s not nearly as easy. The 991’s front suspension geometry was completely different from that in the street car and the newest one is mid-engined. So I don’t think that you can say “this is relevant to my interests and LMP is not” because I would say that the rules are putting a particular strain on the direct correlation between road and race in a car like the 911.
The LMP program is to win Le Mans, market the brand, serve as a laboratory for new tech which we all know is coming into our road cars, and to, like F1, showcase the management style/corporate ethos of the brand. Take the 919’s batteries. My understanding is that they will be the same ones in the Mission E just as the brakes in the 930 came right off the 917. I like that. Even the way that Porsche bothered to tune their street-going turbo engines once they had modern ECUs, to not heat soak under extreme autobahn and track use, came from their knowledge of how the cars worked under load. Porsche continues to be one of the only brands of car that can be driven to a race track and abused without breaking. To tackle that challenge at the highest level excites me.
Furthermore, and this is something that I don’t know that you get as often (maybe at all?), guys in the race division will participate in road car development. Hans Mezger designed the 917’s engine, then designed the Mezger six which went into street production. To have THAT GUY who built part of THAT RACE CAR design the component in your street car is too cool. I wish there was more of this and it is my hope that this link still exists.
2) GT Racing BOP
Commentators at Le Mans hit the nail on the head. The GT cars make their lap times in different ways. The agility the RSR has might offset the smaller torque curve and the aero might mitigate top speed issues. The BOP is something I personally hate though. People consider it a necessary evil. I think that the BOP has, in the past, given each manufacturer an unintentional advantage during certain parts of the season that they then reign in. Who won the championship has been a function of who has the advantage the longest and who makes the most of it while their car is quick. Personally, I would rather watch slower cars that are more like the ones that we could buy. Think about this set of rules for a minute:
- Manufacturer must sell __ number of cars to be able to race.
- Cars must have the exact same bodywork as the street cars but for the addition of side skirts, a front spoiler, and a rear wing.
- All cars must use the same suspension geometry and pickup points that are within __% of the ones in the street car. They can run any tire size and brake size they can fit within the standard bodywork
- Engines must maintain their standard aspiration AND meet emission requirements (to keep power in check) running on unleaded race fuel. No restrictors.
- Safety equipment like a cage are allowed to be fitted.
- You can fit the biggest fuel tank in the car that you can.
- Tires are to be produced to fit the car’s needs by a manufacturer. If Michelin have a better relationship with Porsche than they do with Corvette and a manufacturer starts gaining an advantage because of it, tough. We're already seeing manufacturers ask for special one-off tires for Nring times.
- All parts, including the roll cage, must be made available in a manufacturer’s parts catalogue to street car owners. Theoretically, you should be able to turn your street car into the race car the factory is producing with enough money and insanity.
- Cars must be sold under a certain price (car + parts that improve it beyond standard street car). Make it big enough so Ferrari can play but not so big that you get the GT1/CLK GTR/Mclaren F1 of the 90s where it's all $1M+.
THAT would be a series worth seeing IMO. Talk about road relevance.
1) The concept of the LMP vs the GT racing
Used to be that GT racing literally meant you drove a car off the showroom floor, put some stickers on it, maybe some tires and a cage, and drove it to the track. This is Porsche’s roots going all the way back to the 356. The RSR came about in 1973 and was a jumped up version of the 2.7 RS. The newer RSRs used to be a heavily jumped up version of the Cup which was a GT3 modified for racing. However, things like engine block architecture/suspension geometry/gearbox (presequential) remained the same.
Now, GT racing is like the silhouette racing from the 80s where the cars simply look like their street variants (in most cases). They don't use common parts and the technology transfer is not nearly as relevant. I believe (willing to be corrected) that you could turn a 996 or 997 GT3 into an RSR with a lot of money and some comfort compromises. Now, it’s not nearly as easy. The 991’s front suspension geometry was completely different from that in the street car and the newest one is mid-engined. So I don’t think that you can say “this is relevant to my interests and LMP is not” because I would say that the rules are putting a particular strain on the direct correlation between road and race in a car like the 911.
The LMP program is to win Le Mans, market the brand, serve as a laboratory for new tech which we all know is coming into our road cars, and to, like F1, showcase the management style/corporate ethos of the brand. Take the 919’s batteries. My understanding is that they will be the same ones in the Mission E just as the brakes in the 930 came right off the 917. I like that. Even the way that Porsche bothered to tune their street-going turbo engines once they had modern ECUs, to not heat soak under extreme autobahn and track use, came from their knowledge of how the cars worked under load. Porsche continues to be one of the only brands of car that can be driven to a race track and abused without breaking. To tackle that challenge at the highest level excites me.
Furthermore, and this is something that I don’t know that you get as often (maybe at all?), guys in the race division will participate in road car development. Hans Mezger designed the 917’s engine, then designed the Mezger six which went into street production. To have THAT GUY who built part of THAT RACE CAR design the component in your street car is too cool. I wish there was more of this and it is my hope that this link still exists.
2) GT Racing BOP
Commentators at Le Mans hit the nail on the head. The GT cars make their lap times in different ways. The agility the RSR has might offset the smaller torque curve and the aero might mitigate top speed issues. The BOP is something I personally hate though. People consider it a necessary evil. I think that the BOP has, in the past, given each manufacturer an unintentional advantage during certain parts of the season that they then reign in. Who won the championship has been a function of who has the advantage the longest and who makes the most of it while their car is quick. Personally, I would rather watch slower cars that are more like the ones that we could buy. Think about this set of rules for a minute:
- Manufacturer must sell __ number of cars to be able to race.
- Cars must have the exact same bodywork as the street cars but for the addition of side skirts, a front spoiler, and a rear wing.
- All cars must use the same suspension geometry and pickup points that are within __% of the ones in the street car. They can run any tire size and brake size they can fit within the standard bodywork
- Engines must maintain their standard aspiration AND meet emission requirements (to keep power in check) running on unleaded race fuel. No restrictors.
- Safety equipment like a cage are allowed to be fitted.
- You can fit the biggest fuel tank in the car that you can.
- Tires are to be produced to fit the car’s needs by a manufacturer. If Michelin have a better relationship with Porsche than they do with Corvette and a manufacturer starts gaining an advantage because of it, tough. We're already seeing manufacturers ask for special one-off tires for Nring times.
- All parts, including the roll cage, must be made available in a manufacturer’s parts catalogue to street car owners. Theoretically, you should be able to turn your street car into the race car the factory is producing with enough money and insanity.
- Cars must be sold under a certain price (car + parts that improve it beyond standard street car). Make it big enough so Ferrari can play but not so big that you get the GT1/CLK GTR/Mclaren F1 of the 90s where it's all $1M+.
THAT would be a series worth seeing IMO. Talk about road relevance.
That would be fantastic
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#227
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However, for regular joes buying Panamera and Macans and Cayennes, it is not important what race or what car because they do not watch it anyhow. It is the advertizing of winning something that instills confidence of the the buyer into the brand.
Porsche = winners.
#228
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Without BOP the 911 would not be competitive.
BOP is seen in a variety of series and is designed to:
Keep costs somewhat reasonable
Facilitate a diversity of participation from various manufacturers - front engine, mid engine, rear engine; 6, 8, 10 cylinder; NA, FI, etc.
GTE Pro BOP at Le Mans was quite equitable overall. Every manufacturer led and had the ability to win. Michael Christensen wrecked the class leading 92 car.
BOP is seen in a variety of series and is designed to:
Keep costs somewhat reasonable
Facilitate a diversity of participation from various manufacturers - front engine, mid engine, rear engine; 6, 8, 10 cylinder; NA, FI, etc.
GTE Pro BOP at Le Mans was quite equitable overall. Every manufacturer led and had the ability to win. Michael Christensen wrecked the class leading 92 car.
#229
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The way it is now the ruling body finds ways to help those teams that do not to spend by giving them artificial advantages. Conversely they penalize those that have done their homework. If anyone wants to compete let the them find speed, do not hand it to them.
Again I recognize they want more cars on the grid so the BOP game is played.
Again I recognize they want more cars on the grid so the BOP game is played.
#230
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Porsche returned in 2014, attracted by the new ruleset.
Porsche and Audi competed against each other for three years, with different drivers, engineering teams, and overall car concepts.
A (by no means exhaustive) listing of reasons why Audi left and Porsche stayed:
Porsche more successful than Audi; since Porsche arrived Audi had won Le Mans once (2014) and the WEC title zero times, whereas Porsche had won Le Mans twice (2015, 2016) and the WEC title twice (2015, 2016)
Simple financial costs of dieselgate; no reason for VAG to spend up to $500MM a year on WEC & Le Mans to watch one marque win and the other lose; or worse yet - both lose to Toyota!
Porsche utilizing gasoline hybrid vs. Audi diesel hybrid; Audi (or any VAG company) can never again market diesel anywhere on the globe with any credibility
Could Audi have developed a competitive non-diesel race car on a short timetable? Remember, that would cost even more money
#231
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http://www.thisisf1.com/2017/06/20/p...at-austria-gp/
Not good news
Porsche could be contemplating a future move into formula one. The Volkswagen-owned German sports car maker has just won its third overall victory at Le Mans on the trot — and F1 could now be on the horizon.
That is the claim of Germany’s Auto Bild, saying Porsche has accepted an invitation to attend the next meeting to discuss F1’s post-2020 engine rules.
“We now know the (Le Mans) regulations for 2020,” said Porsche’s Le Mans chief Fritz Enzinger.
“In the next weeks Peugeot should decide whether they come or not. But even if they do, we have to consider whether we want to go another two or three years in Le Mans.
“At the moment, I cannot assess that,” he added.
The Auto Bild report mentioned that Formula E is one post-Le Mans option for Porsche, but there are also rumours McLaren is interested in a customer engine deal with the marque.
As Porsche won at Le Mans last weekend, the fabled endurance race was being attended not only by McLaren executive Zak Brown, but also F1 team boss Eric Boullier.
And Auto Bild said that in just over two weeks, Porsche’s Enzinger and his fellow chief Andreas Seidl will attend the Austrian grand prix.
That is the claim of Germany’s Auto Bild, saying Porsche has accepted an invitation to attend the next meeting to discuss F1’s post-2020 engine rules.
“We now know the (Le Mans) regulations for 2020,” said Porsche’s Le Mans chief Fritz Enzinger.
“In the next weeks Peugeot should decide whether they come or not. But even if they do, we have to consider whether we want to go another two or three years in Le Mans.
“At the moment, I cannot assess that,” he added.
The Auto Bild report mentioned that Formula E is one post-Le Mans option for Porsche, but there are also rumours McLaren is interested in a customer engine deal with the marque.
As Porsche won at Le Mans last weekend, the fabled endurance race was being attended not only by McLaren executive Zak Brown, but also F1 team boss Eric Boullier.
And Auto Bild said that in just over two weeks, Porsche’s Enzinger and his fellow chief Andreas Seidl will attend the Austrian grand prix.
#232
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Porsche 919 LMP1 and a Mclaren Porsche F1 have the same relevancy as what we all drive and have in our garages! That is to say Zero.
#233
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http://www.thisisf1.com/2017/06/20/p...at-austria-gp/
“In the next weeks Peugeot should decide whether they come or not. But even if they do, we have to consider whether we want to go another two or three years in Le Mans."
“In the next weeks Peugeot should decide whether they come or not. But even if they do, we have to consider whether we want to go another two or three years in Le Mans."
#234
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Mercedes - Obviously not
Ferrari - Obviously not
Red Bull - Maybe, but what about the promotional tie up with Aston Martin and the forthcoming Valkyrie car?
Force India Mercedes - Why switch? They already have the best engine
Toro Rosso - Maybe?
Williams Mercedes - Why switch? They already have the best engine
Renault - OEM, so no
Haas Ferrari - Maybe
Sauber Ferrari - Going to Honda next year
McLaren Honda - Desperate for a quality engine NOW
#236
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Very true.
However, for regular joes buying Panamera and Macans and Cayennes, it is not important what race or what car because they do not watch it anyhow. It is the advertizing of winning something that instills confidence of the the buyer into the brand.
Porsche = winners.
However, for regular joes buying Panamera and Macans and Cayennes, it is not important what race or what car because they do not watch it anyhow. It is the advertizing of winning something that instills confidence of the the buyer into the brand.
Porsche = winners.
#237
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You would be surprised by porsche customers as much as you are disappointed in them.
The blind customers you generalize do indeed exisit however you need to look deeper into why they actually arrived at the showroom in the first place. Marketing got the blind customer through the door.
They are there because of brand. They know nothing else other then the brand is supposedly good.
The brand was built on reputation of racing and winning which came from quality engineering. Without racing it wouldnt be the brand it is today.
The brand is still marketed as such.
People are still buying the brand because it is still doing well.
When they shop websites for vehicle purchase and they see the porsche website list the race car as a winner in some big race that tends to sit well with most customers. These customs tend to think that if Porsche can win a big race then they can at least build a decent street car with the same engineers and technology. Especially the Hybrid customer.
The blind customers you generalize do indeed exisit however you need to look deeper into why they actually arrived at the showroom in the first place. Marketing got the blind customer through the door.
They are there because of brand. They know nothing else other then the brand is supposedly good.
The brand was built on reputation of racing and winning which came from quality engineering. Without racing it wouldnt be the brand it is today.
The brand is still marketed as such.
People are still buying the brand because it is still doing well.
When they shop websites for vehicle purchase and they see the porsche website list the race car as a winner in some big race that tends to sit well with most customers. These customs tend to think that if Porsche can win a big race then they can at least build a decent street car with the same engineers and technology. Especially the Hybrid customer.
Now they make an assload of ULVs. The average buyer of a porsche is buying a needlessly lifted small wagon with a V6 and a planetary autobox. These small ULVs will keel over on a track faster than a fat man standing on a pencil.
Their ULVs are NOT race cars, or even racecar derived. A 135i could cane a Macan. And the 135i is a 10 year old design with a self choking engine.
#238
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But it doesn't for average buyer, because the average buyer doesn't watch Lemans or really any prototype racing at all. They watch Formula 1, where they see that Ferrari and Mercedes are winners, or locally they watch IMSA, where they see Cadillac, Nissan, Chevy, Mercedes are winners... Where exactly, other than in the invisible world of Prototype racing, is Porsche consistently winning these days? Every time I turn on a race, Porsche is getting their *** kicked.
All that the average buyer will notice is on the website that the manufacture won a 24h race advertized on the home page. Then they click to the model they are interested in and move on. But they are now aware of something that porsche recently won.
it is web candy for the manufacture.
I have seen some Porsche cars podium in IMSA and PWC this year. But the average buyer has no idea of that to be honest and it is not marketed on the porsche website or to the masses like a LeMans victory.
#239
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Race car marketing? Maybe when Porsche still made a majority of actual sports cars.
Now they make an assload of ULVs. The average buyer of a porsche is buying a needlessly lifted small wagon with a V6 and a planetary autobox. These small ULVs will keel over on a track faster than a fat man standing on a pencil.
Their ULVs are NOT race cars, or even racecar derived. A 135i could cane a Macan. And the 135i is a 10 year old design with a self choking engine.
Now they make an assload of ULVs. The average buyer of a porsche is buying a needlessly lifted small wagon with a V6 and a planetary autobox. These small ULVs will keel over on a track faster than a fat man standing on a pencil.
Their ULVs are NOT race cars, or even racecar derived. A 135i could cane a Macan. And the 135i is a 10 year old design with a self choking engine.
You can see the sports car DNA engineered into them.
Cant say the same for other SUV manufactures.
#240
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If you want to make a car handle well, keep the COM low. That's basic knowledge. It's also why the endangered wagon is such a great thing. You get excellent cargo volume without a significant handling penalty.
That's why claimed 'sporty' ULVs will always **** me off. They are one step forward, five steps back. Just lower the roofline and suspension and then you won't have to struggle so intensely to make it handle.
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