991.2 GTS, GT3, GT2, GT3 RS, Mission E - Update
01-11-2017, 09:40 AM
#421
Not sure if you guys read the article in total 911.
992 will most likely share platform with cayman and other VW products. Will be a hybrid based platform in a way that calexio wanted. One of the challenges is how far the car has to be able to go in EM (electric mode) only.
My understanding is that it might be very costly to do RWD only in a hybrid car for Porsche. CJ and some others might know more about how the P1 does it?
I'm absolutely sure that the FI we see now is a middle step in between NA and hybrid/EV that is to come. This is being forced upon the manufactures by euro emissions and the 3.0l max displacement from the Chinese.
Less cars sold in the US but more sold in China as we have seen in another thread.
I have great trust in Porsches engineers. They will continue to make cars that deliver what we want. Even if Turbo/hybrid/EV.
We just need to keep a few of the old ones as well. They won't make any more.
992 will most likely share platform with cayman and other VW products. Will be a hybrid based platform in a way that calexio wanted. One of the challenges is how far the car has to be able to go in EM (electric mode) only.
My understanding is that it might be very costly to do RWD only in a hybrid car for Porsche. CJ and some others might know more about how the P1 does it?
I'm absolutely sure that the FI we see now is a middle step in between NA and hybrid/EV that is to come. This is being forced upon the manufactures by euro emissions and the 3.0l max displacement from the Chinese.
Less cars sold in the US but more sold in China as we have seen in another thread.
I have great trust in Porsches engineers. They will continue to make cars that deliver what we want. Even if Turbo/hybrid/EV.
We just need to keep a few of the old ones as well. They won't make any more.
01-11-2017, 10:02 AM
#422
Race Car
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01-11-2017, 12:42 PM
#423
Drifting
They did the bodywork already on the Cup car. .2 GT3.
GT3R updated from the 991.1 GT3RS, which came off the line in 2015 as a model year 2016. RSR sort of stayed the same as they did for 2016 body wise, which was basically the .1 GT3RS.
Regulations dictated that cars stays the same without modifications for 2 years. They got a waiver for the RSR for 2017 when they switched to mid engine but kept pretty much the same bodywork. That means for the 2018 car they can either keep the same body style but swapping the engine to turbo from the GT2RS if the reworked aero package from the mid engine change worked out, or do a brand spanking new car based off the 992 bodywork. Will be tight timing wise to use the 992 as a base if the 992 comes out in 2018 as a 2019 model, that almost leave them no time to debate a 992 GT car as the base.
The wild card is the 960. IF that's a go ahead, Porsche could use that as the new base. But since nothing has been seen or heard about the 960, debuting it as a 2019 model for 2018 is sort of pushing it.
As for displacement to 4.2L, that's a tiny gain compared to what they can do with a turbo torque wise. Especially with air restrictors. The HP gain will be tiny and so will the torque. Switching to 3.0L turbo means they gain back a bigger diameter restrictor yet monster gain in torque.
GT3R updated from the 991.1 GT3RS, which came off the line in 2015 as a model year 2016. RSR sort of stayed the same as they did for 2016 body wise, which was basically the .1 GT3RS.
Regulations dictated that cars stays the same without modifications for 2 years. They got a waiver for the RSR for 2017 when they switched to mid engine but kept pretty much the same bodywork. That means for the 2018 car they can either keep the same body style but swapping the engine to turbo from the GT2RS if the reworked aero package from the mid engine change worked out, or do a brand spanking new car based off the 992 bodywork. Will be tight timing wise to use the 992 as a base if the 992 comes out in 2018 as a 2019 model, that almost leave them no time to debate a 992 GT car as the base.
The wild card is the 960. IF that's a go ahead, Porsche could use that as the new base. But since nothing has been seen or heard about the 960, debuting it as a 2019 model for 2018 is sort of pushing it.
As for displacement to 4.2L, that's a tiny gain compared to what they can do with a turbo torque wise. Especially with air restrictors. The HP gain will be tiny and so will the torque. Switching to 3.0L turbo means they gain back a bigger diameter restrictor yet monster gain in torque.
960 thoughts:
Won't arrive until next gen R8/Huracan platform; will have much more in common with the R8/Huracan than it does with the 918, but will be marketed as a 918 lite
R8 and Huracan race in GT3/GTD, so we could see the curious specter of a model that is ABOVE the 911 in the street car hierarchy racing in the slower ProAm customer classes while the 911 is the factory race car. Major marketing boondoggle but would help solve some of the GT3 R problems (ie, difficult for gentleman drivers relative to Mercedes/Audi/Lambo/Ferrari)
I'm still not sure where it fits in the Porsche lineup or VAG's plans; where will it compete? If it's R8/Huracan based it would probably be slotted between the 2 of those in terms of price/power/performance. This is a crowded market segment, as it includes the GT3, GT3 RS, 911 Turbo, 911 Turbo S, etc. Alternatively, how can they move it upmarket to challenge the likes of F12, Aventador, 675 LT, etc. if it's "just" an Audi R8?
Porsche GT program did some testing with a 997 GT3R Hybrid back in 2014 and it was very quick from what i can recall. I really hope we start seeing GT3 and GT3RS with the 4.0 and extra power coming from the batteries in 992 before they go the Turbo route. Otherwise, GT3 and GT3RS models dont make sense anymore and GT2 and GT2RS will be the only models Porsche sells and maybe use an R model with a NA engine even if the 992 GTS is going to be faster.
The 997 GT3R Hybrid used braking to generate a charge for two front mounted electric motors and the only use the power to exit corners and then shut down. The total system weight added 300lbs which doesnt really work on a street GT3, but they also used two 100 hp motors which are very big and heavy.
I think for a GT3 or GT3RS, they only need 60HP and 100TQ motor and a battery to store power from front brakes stored upfront and then link the power to transmission and keep it rwd only. If they manage to get the weight down to 100-150lbs i think its worth it and will keep NA power GT variants alive for at least 3-4 extra versions.
I think for a GT3 or GT3RS, they only need 60HP and 100TQ motor and a battery to store power from front brakes stored upfront and then link the power to transmission and keep it rwd only. If they manage to get the weight down to 100-150lbs i think its worth it and will keep NA power GT variants alive for at least 3-4 extra versions.
Not sure if you guys read the article in total 911.
992 will most likely share platform with cayman and other VW products. Will be a hybrid based platform in a way that calexio wanted. One of the challenges is how far the car has to be able to go in EM (electric mode) only.
My understanding is that it might be very costly to do RWD only in a hybrid car for Porsche. CJ and some others might know more about how the P1 does it?
I'm absolutely sure that the FI we see now is a middle step in between NA and hybrid/EV that is to come. This is being forced upon the manufactures by euro emissions and the 3.0l max displacement from the Chinese.
Less cars sold in the US but more sold in China as we have seen in another thread.
I have great trust in Porsches engineers. They will continue to make cars that deliver what we want. Even if Turbo/hybrid/EV.
We just need to keep a few of the old ones as well. They won't make any more.
992 will most likely share platform with cayman and other VW products. Will be a hybrid based platform in a way that calexio wanted. One of the challenges is how far the car has to be able to go in EM (electric mode) only.
My understanding is that it might be very costly to do RWD only in a hybrid car for Porsche. CJ and some others might know more about how the P1 does it?
I'm absolutely sure that the FI we see now is a middle step in between NA and hybrid/EV that is to come. This is being forced upon the manufactures by euro emissions and the 3.0l max displacement from the Chinese.
Less cars sold in the US but more sold in China as we have seen in another thread.
I have great trust in Porsches engineers. They will continue to make cars that deliver what we want. Even if Turbo/hybrid/EV.
We just need to keep a few of the old ones as well. They won't make any more.
01-11-2017, 12:53 PM
#424
Nordschleife Master
I agree with Whoopsy here.
Hasn't PAG conceded the mid engine layout is superior with the new RSR. Its a super Cayman with a 911 body kit.
Will future 911 GT cars not only be tt but mid engined? There are no back seats in a GT3/RS anyway so whats the problem?
Could the 991.1GT3RS be the last of the GT3RS and/or the last of the NA GT3RS and/or the last of the rear engined GT/RS?
Hasn't PAG conceded the mid engine layout is superior with the new RSR. Its a super Cayman with a 911 body kit.
Will future 911 GT cars not only be tt but mid engined? There are no back seats in a GT3/RS anyway so whats the problem?
Could the 991.1GT3RS be the last of the GT3RS and/or the last of the NA GT3RS and/or the last of the rear engined GT/RS?
01-11-2017, 01:06 PM
#425
Drifting
I agree with Whoopsy here.
Hasn't PAG conceded the mid engine layout is superior with the new RSR. Its a super Cayman with a 911 body kit.
Will future 911 GT cars not only be tt but mid engined? There are no back seats in a GT3/RS anyway so whats the problem?
Could the 991.1GT3RS be the last of the GT3RS and/or the last of the NA GT3RS and/or the last of the rear engined GT/RS?
Hasn't PAG conceded the mid engine layout is superior with the new RSR. Its a super Cayman with a 911 body kit.
Will future 911 GT cars not only be tt but mid engined? There are no back seats in a GT3/RS anyway so whats the problem?
Could the 991.1GT3RS be the last of the GT3RS and/or the last of the NA GT3RS and/or the last of the rear engined GT/RS?
The transition to mid-engine is fundamentally about 2 things (within the current rule book):
Diffuser Aero (ie, not possible with a rear engine)
Tire Life
FSW is on record from multiple sources during LA auto show that there were no plans for a mid-engined 911 street car.
01-11-2017, 01:19 PM
#426
Rennlist Member
It will not be feasible for Porsche to do a carbon tub 911 GT car.
McLaren currently is the volume leader in doing carbon tub cars, and they make about 4000 cars a year. That's tiny compared to how many 911s/Cayman/Boxster Porsche sells a year.
Zuffenhausen is not setup to do carbon tub cars, all the GT cars and regular 911s and Cayman/Boxster go down the same line.
If anything, a carbon tub car will be the 960 and it will need to be on a separate line. There is no room in Zuffenhausen right now to expand. From memory, they are building there right now, but the new build was suppose to be a bigger paint shop if I recall, they have maxed out the current capacity.
Leipzig also has an expansion going, but I don't see how Porsche would want to make a 960 there, and the expanded capacity are for Cayenne Macan and Panamera anyway.
Weissach is not a manufacturing facility.
Even if they want to build, they currently have no room. At least not until they have repurpose some existing facility and that will take a couple years.
01-11-2017, 01:22 PM
#427
Rennlist Member
Not a super Cayman by any means- the Cayman has a much more primitive rear suspension setup vs. the street 911s. The RSR is on another level of course.
The transition to mid-engine is fundamentally about 2 things (within the current rule book):
Diffuser Aero (ie, not possible with a rear engine)
Tire Life
FSW is on record from multiple sources during LA auto show that there were no plans for a mid-engined 911 street car.
The transition to mid-engine is fundamentally about 2 things (within the current rule book):
Diffuser Aero (ie, not possible with a rear engine)
Tire Life
FSW is on record from multiple sources during LA auto show that there were no plans for a mid-engined 911 street car.
Depending on which Cayman we talking about
The GT4 has a different setup than a regular Cayman, and the GT4 ClubSport's race setup is race proven already on the racing circuit.
01-11-2017, 01:27 PM
#428
Race Director
You don't see Lamborghini for example or Audi making a carbon tub or modular piece of chassis off-site and then shipping in to Porsche for assembly?
01-11-2017, 01:31 PM
#429
Drifting
960 thoughts:
Won't arrive until next gen R8/Huracan platform; will have much more in common with the R8/Huracan than it does with the 918, but will be marketed as a 918 lite
R8 and Huracan race in GT3/GTD, so we could see the curious specter of a model that is ABOVE the 911 in the street car hierarchy racing in the slower ProAm customer classes while the 911 is the factory race car. Major marketing boondoggle but would help solve some of the GT3 R problems (ie, difficult for gentleman drivers relative to Mercedes/Audi/Lambo/Ferrari)
I'm still not sure where it fits in the Porsche lineup or VAG's plans; where will it compete? If it's R8/Huracan based it would probably be slotted between the 2 of those in terms of price/power/performance. This is a crowded market segment, as it includes the GT3, GT3 RS, 911 Turbo, 911 Turbo S, etc. Alternatively, how can they move it upmarket to challenge the likes of F12, Aventador, 675 LT, etc. if it's "just" an Audi R8?
Won't arrive until next gen R8/Huracan platform; will have much more in common with the R8/Huracan than it does with the 918, but will be marketed as a 918 lite
R8 and Huracan race in GT3/GTD, so we could see the curious specter of a model that is ABOVE the 911 in the street car hierarchy racing in the slower ProAm customer classes while the 911 is the factory race car. Major marketing boondoggle but would help solve some of the GT3 R problems (ie, difficult for gentleman drivers relative to Mercedes/Audi/Lambo/Ferrari)
I'm still not sure where it fits in the Porsche lineup or VAG's plans; where will it compete? If it's R8/Huracan based it would probably be slotted between the 2 of those in terms of price/power/performance. This is a crowded market segment, as it includes the GT3, GT3 RS, 911 Turbo, 911 Turbo S, etc. Alternatively, how can they move it upmarket to challenge the likes of F12, Aventador, 675 LT, etc. if it's "just" an Audi R8?
01-11-2017, 01:35 PM
#430
Rennlist Member
Well, the 992 chassis is the earliest Porsche can go hybrid on the 911.
I had discuss with Walliser face to face about doing hybrids in a 911 body. Battery in the centre tunnel, electric driven front axle with the motor in the front differential location, sort of like a 918-lite drivetrain.
(after all, they did all the calibration for a disconnected drivetrain on the 918)He ruled out 991 body as there is no room, but 992.............
Anyway, Porsche has chosen hybridization as a performance adder, not a fuel economy adder, and one can see the direction they are going by looking at the incoming Panamera Turbo S. It will be a performance hybrid, should be close to 700HP. So using that logic, that means perhaps Porsche might do the range topper 911 Turbo S in a hybrid, to differentiate it from the regular 911s as those are all turbos now.
But for NA cars, it's a crap shoot on how they gonna do it in 992. Maybe they will keep the 4.0L rig, or maybe not.
01-11-2017, 01:44 PM
#431
Rennlist Member
I can certainly see how outsider can supply carbon parts to Porsche for assembling purposes. But not right now for the Zuffenhausen line, it isn't setup to do carbon work.
Think about it, a 911 body in white is much bigger, and more complex to do in one piece. it's not like them bolting on a carbon fender like in the GT3RS or the R.
Serious weight loss can only come with a full carbon tub, not just fenders and stuff, and a grounds up design carbon tub would be more efficient than make one that replicate the current 911 body, a lot of the ribs and valleys on the floor plan is not needed, bolt holes rivet holes can be eliminated, etc.
If they do something like that, they might as well setup a new line designed to do a lot of carbon work.
01-11-2017, 01:52 PM
#432
Well, the 992 chassis is the earliest Porsche can go hybrid on the 911.
I had discuss with Walliser face to face about doing hybrids in a 911 body. Battery in the centre tunnel, electric driven front axle with the motor in the front differential location, sort of like a 918-lite drivetrain. (after all, they did all the calibration for a disconnected drivetrain on the 918)
He ruled out 991 body as there is no room, but 992.............
Anyway, Porsche has chosen hybridization as a performance adder, not a fuel economy adder, and one can see the direction they are going by looking at the incoming Panamera Turbo S. It will be a performance hybrid, should be close to 700HP. So using that logic, that means perhaps Porsche might do the range topper 911 Turbo S in a hybrid, to differentiate it from the regular 911s as those are all turbos now.
But for NA cars, it's a crap shoot on how they gonna do it in 992. Maybe they will keep the 4.0L rig, or maybe not.
I had discuss with Walliser face to face about doing hybrids in a 911 body. Battery in the centre tunnel, electric driven front axle with the motor in the front differential location, sort of like a 918-lite drivetrain.
(after all, they did all the calibration for a disconnected drivetrain on the 918)He ruled out 991 body as there is no room, but 992.............
Anyway, Porsche has chosen hybridization as a performance adder, not a fuel economy adder, and one can see the direction they are going by looking at the incoming Panamera Turbo S. It will be a performance hybrid, should be close to 700HP. So using that logic, that means perhaps Porsche might do the range topper 911 Turbo S in a hybrid, to differentiate it from the regular 911s as those are all turbos now.
But for NA cars, it's a crap shoot on how they gonna do it in 992. Maybe they will keep the 4.0L rig, or maybe not.
If nothing else, it is certainly exciting times to be a Porsche admirer. I doubt any other car manufacturer generates this much discussion and fervor. So that is pretty cool!
01-11-2017, 02:02 PM
#433
Three Wheelin'
If were the designer I'd be going carbon tub with NA plus mild hybrid.
La Ferrari philosophy rather than 918. The hybrid primarily there to get you through the EU emissions tests but as a bi-product enabling your NA motor to be even more peaky. It could sound awesome and the electric motors giving back the tractability and torque at low revs.
Battery+ elec motors small as possible. All weight gains offset by carbon tub with added bonus of weight distribution flexibility as you can more or less choose where you put the battery. Keep RWD obvs.
La Ferrari philosophy rather than 918. The hybrid primarily there to get you through the EU emissions tests but as a bi-product enabling your NA motor to be even more peaky. It could sound awesome and the electric motors giving back the tractability and torque at low revs.
Battery+ elec motors small as possible. All weight gains offset by carbon tub with added bonus of weight distribution flexibility as you can more or less choose where you put the battery. Keep RWD obvs.
01-11-2017, 02:23 PM
#434
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Bardman
Not wanting to go too off topic, but a (very small) 3rd party such as Dundon were able to add 23HP to the GT3 just by changing the headers. I have no doubt Porsche could extract more without too much difficulty if they went after it.
Tuners don't have to abide by the strict rules that manufacturers have to. Also, manufacturers have to leave some level of threshold for bad gas etc, which is what vendors use to extract additional power from.
I am sure dundon can chime in but it couldn't have been that easy
01-11-2017, 04:04 PM
#435
Nordschleife Master
Not a super Cayman by any means- the Cayman has a much more primitive rear suspension setup vs. the street 911s. The RSR is on another level of course.
The transition to mid-engine is fundamentally about 2 things (within the current rule book):
Diffuser Aero (ie, not possible with a rear engine)
Tire Life
FSW is on record from multiple sources during LA auto show that there were no plans for a mid-engined 911 street car.
The transition to mid-engine is fundamentally about 2 things (within the current rule book):
Diffuser Aero (ie, not possible with a rear engine)
Tire Life
FSW is on record from multiple sources during LA auto show that there were no plans for a mid-engined 911 street car.
