Thanks Jamie, from all RL's who have something in this fight.

 

I am no longer on the sidelines reading the thread. My car is in the shop with the engine coming out for new heads and cams. No engine replacement. This has me and the tech doing the work concerned but the warranty department at PCNA is standing by the solution.

Here is my info so far:
2015 991 GT3, 10700 miles. It is an F engine. I am the second owner having purchased the car at 5200 miles. I have no info on the break-in procedure used. I was told the PO did not track the car. Brake and tire wear indicate this is probably true. I have owned the the car 10 months. I've taken it to 7 track days at Sebring (6) and Daytona (1), 3 autocrosses and the rest is "drive and dine" saturdays with PCA friends. Some of those events include back road high spirited driving. I always use auto shift. I've owned and raced 7 Porsches over 26 years and never had a problem like this happen. Still amazed that Porsche let the engine out in this state of completion.

Long Chronology of events:
I was attending PCA sponsored OctoberFast weekend DE at Daytona speedway when I got the dreaded misfire on #6 cylinder. It was only my second session on Friday morning so I was still in track learning mode and not pushing the car hard. Daytona with its high banking and long straights requires the car to be at high RPM for along periods of time twice every lap. I called My dealership and they recommended swapping coils and plugs. Drove the 90 min there Saturday morning, coil pack tested bad, no replacements to be had and so I left the car and returned to Daytona with a loaner. Even though it ruined my DE weekend I was upset but felt it was an electrical issue not mechanical so I dodged a bullet. An inconvenience and out a few hundred dollars.

Next week, Dealership's initial solution was replace all plugs and coils. Since I was close to the 12k service point anyway, it seemed like the prudent thing to do. Got the car back, tested it and on the first 3-4 full throttle acceleration the error came back. Back to the dealership. PCNA recommended to pull the valve covers. They found the damage. All the cam followers have only small rubbing losses in the DLC except for #6 where there is more loss of coating and metal. The cam lobe also is visibly worn. There are fines in the oil filter and I sent an oil sample off to Blackstone labs.

PCNA is recommending top end rebuild with new heads and cams. The dealership tech doesn't agree and recommended I contact customer care. After two days they came back, no change in status. They could not explain why the decision was made, just that Warranty dept. thought it was safe. Now waiting on parts. My dealership promised to have the car ready for the next Sebring event on the 18th.

 

Sorry to hear about your engine. Thank you for keeping us posted.

 

Keep your fingers crossed. It usually takes a bit longer.

Sorry about your engine. Unfortunately it's normal for 991 GT3.

 

At this point, is it safe to say that any out-of-warranty 991.1 gt3 that does NOT have the latest "solution" to the problem implemented should be avoided like the plague? In a bizarre twist, the ones experiencing the problem and implementing the "solution" during warranty should consider themselves lucky. Getting a whole new "resolved" engine during warranty is like winning the lottery.

 

I think ANY out-of-warranty 991 GT3 should be avoided like the plague. Even if it has "resolved" engine.

 

Good point. There's no reason to believe that the latest "solution" will be the one that eliminates the problem.

 

CDinSing. On the bright side you will have the latest top end with the DLC cams. Its the best they have come up with yet and is common to the later RS and the 991R engines.

 

Does anyone here 100% believe that the 991.2 GT3 engine will have absolutely eliminated this issue form the MA17X family of engines?

I know Ive been championing the 991.1 GT3 product through thick and thin since the very beginning, but even I am considerably skeptical we will see a definite solution in the next generation GT3 (and RS).

Reducing the next GT3 rev limit to 8500 rpm will surely help in prolonging the issue, as will "DLC coated everything" but Imn still not convinced PAG have a full handle on this. I guess if they can get these engines reliable for 3-4 years of track work so they fall out of warranty then that is one way to claim a victory from a corporate balance sheet perspective but Im really not sure there has been a technical breakthrough with the 991.2 GT3 engine other than what we have seen as teh culmination of technical "patches" thus applied to date on 991.1 GT3 MA175, plus 991.1 GT3RS MA176 engines...

I think we should be clear here also. This is not just a 991.1 GT3 engine specific issue. The simple fact is the GT3 is doing more track time in greater number than the RS and R and has been around now for over 3 years. E engines dominate the failure curve closely followed by F engines, but bot these engines are in cars that are now 20-30 months old and have done 2 and some 3 season of track work.

There is a reason Porsche dropped the redline in the 991 RS and incorporated G series changes learnt form E and F series GT3 missfires (oil pump and filter, ECU software, head design, second deneration MIME finger followers with updated DLC coating, new rings to stop smoking on idle, valve spring update to name just a few). These same changes were incorporated into G series 991.1 GT3 engines (unfortunately probably only 300 or so G engined 991.1 GT3 were made worldwide before production ceased a few months later). At this time we cannot point to any specific examples (with credibility) of a G series engined 991.1 GT3 OR RS having suffered the same issue, but the factory have made further modifications to finger followers and cams so we have to assume that in time even these engines may show similar symptoms (RS may take longer with reduced rev limit etc).


I really want to believe this is all releagted to history once the 991.2 GT3 is rolled out with all the good oil poured over it at launch by AP and team but unless there is a very technical and convincing brief that goes along with the launch of the new car, I believe we simply enter a new chapter in this saga. I really would love the book to be closed as its occupied so much of my time and worry as Im sure it has for many others, but I suspect similar threads will be started again in the distant future on the same or similar issues. The good news is by then there may be firther fixes or the aftermarket may have its wn bullet proof solutions available.

I dont mean to be negative, Im just trying to keep things real here before we all have the good smoke blown up our a$$es again in march in Geneva. Also for those who have the newly fixed engine reveal in the knowledge you have the very latest remedy (likely the same one that features in the 9A1 race engine and soon to be announced 991.2 GT3) and just drive the thing and enjoy it as one thing I think is certain resulting from this situation - THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER 9000 RPM HIGH AND FAST REVVING H6 ENGINE IN FUTURE GT ROAD PRODUCTS. I think for all the negatives this is something to be celebrated. This engine may be chocolate but it is pure magic and if they can keep making it last longer then all the better for us.

 

Bronson, given that F engines are succumbing to premature wear/inadequate lubrication/ or bad design, regardless have you considered going forward with your idea? Should we create a group and contact PCNA? PM if you so wish. Thanks.

 

I think that is a bit unfair. These cars are absolutely phenomenal and the issue will eventually be resolved, be it Porsche or the aftermarket that makes it happen. While I agree that these issues are unacceptable, and Porsche should step up and cover this issue even on cars out of warranty, the past shows that when issues like this arise Porsche does not have a good reputation of doing what is right (IMS bearing, Mezger coolant fittings, intake cam sleeve rotation on the 997TTs, etc) even after class action lawsuits.

If Porsche doesn't cover this issue on all cars, it will become yet another model with another endemic issue(s) that will require rectification before becoming reliable. It will likely be an expensive fix, but there are a lot of Porsche owners who have cars out of warranty and have ponied up $5-10k for basic and preventative maintenance. Heck, the intake cam sleeve failure of the early 997TTs struck my car about this time last year and that little stunt cost me $8k alone (and I've spent $14k in preventative maintenance and repairing the one failure in the total 3 years I've owned it). The 997TTs are considered "reliable" by the Porschephiles, yet there are a few nasty surprises lurking for any owner of those cars.

 

At this point I don't have much hope for the 991.2 GT3 engine...

If you track hard and often they will probably break...I still find it a bit humorous when people talk about driving their cars to the track,push them hard and then drive home relaxing with a cup of tea... That might just work a few times but they WILL break eventually. It's the risk of driving on the track...you are making a compromise whether you want to believe it or not...

I personally wouldn't accept a top end rebuild because I know how engines work,I've been inside them and I know what happens when metal starts traveling all over the engine scoring components and clogging oil passages. But I understand you don't have a choice unfortunately...total BS IMO!

 

This is a valid point.

Its really "the same as its always been" in one way I guess. With the 991.1 GT3 the issue have showed themselves much earlier than with 997 car which are now just "coming of age". maybe actually that is a blessing - because PAG will find it hard backing oyt of further emedial action on a product they have in many cases already had to work on during warranty. For example I have my third engine a G but it doesnt have the G1 DLC coated cams. I have 5000 miles and 6 track days on this engine, lets say in 18 months time after warranty I have 20 track days and 20k miles on it and it throws the missfire code again. Will Porsche replace the heads with the latest greatest DLC everything ones? I suspect they will have to as they have already conceded there is an issue with the last engine swap. I could be wrong however....

I know 997 GT3 and TTS owners that have now spent 10K+ on pinning coolant pipes and the like. Design issues not covered by goodwill.

At the end of teh day we are not talking about catastrophic engine failure here like doing a crank bearing. Unless alot of debris enters the engine we are effectively talking about replacing cams and rocker fingers, top end work, which out of warranty would probably not amount to any more than 8K including labour. Heck the aftermarket may have better solutions for even less by then. Its still a tonne of wedge though, and its no excuse either, but its a devils we are beginning to know and can quantify.

If this/these are the only issues that ever plague the 991.2 GT3 then thats actually not so bad - we know the issue, PAG have been dealing with it.

But its early days, like with the GT4 and the RS and the next GT3, GT2RS etc we dont really know if these products will be robust and reliable and "fit for purpose" for many years to come. Probably when they are second hand on their 3rd or 4th owner they may discover something with the PDK transmissions or something else that was "sub standard" and creates an aftermarket solution in the future.

Porsche may have taken away alot of the aftermarket Tuners business by locking down ECUs or using Turbos or whatever but they seem hell bent on providing a tonne of future business for the industry LOL!

 

I cannot find this in Google: can you remove the 991 heads without dropping the engine?

 

It's a 911. The engine gets dropped for everything.