How many 15-16 gt3's have engine replaced?
09-01-2016, 07:54 PM
#1591
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It is a bit more complicated. From 2015 on all cars newly registered in the US must have a black box useful for accident reconstruction, named EDR ("event data recorder").
http://standards.sae.org/j1698/2_201301/
Download pdf and more links:
https://www.google.com/search?q=saej...hrome&ie=UTF-8
The standard does not specify how this is implemented. Obviously there is nothing that keeps the manufacturer from also storing this information when the CE light goes on, as long as they also keep the on-crash functionality.
I read somewhere that GPS is supposed to be in there if the car has it, but I can't see that right now. Again, nothing keeps the manufacturer from putting in whatever they like in addition to the required elements.
The reason why you don't hear about this often is that it is kept a bit under the covers. U.S. police very rarely request this data for random accidents (because police officers are the most enthusiastic speeders both on and off duty, not to mention U.S. police generally doesn't like to do accident reconstruction in the first place) and if they do request it then they just throw it in as "excessive speed appears to be a cause" pretending it came out of tire marks or whatever.
I am sure that Porsche knows where your car was when the CEL came on, in the models with GPS as standard at least.
http://standards.sae.org/j1698/2_201301/
Download pdf and more links:
https://www.google.com/search?q=saej...hrome&ie=UTF-8
The standard does not specify how this is implemented. Obviously there is nothing that keeps the manufacturer from also storing this information when the CE light goes on, as long as they also keep the on-crash functionality.
I read somewhere that GPS is supposed to be in there if the car has it, but I can't see that right now. Again, nothing keeps the manufacturer from putting in whatever they like in addition to the required elements.
The reason why you don't hear about this often is that it is kept a bit under the covers. U.S. police very rarely request this data for random accidents (because police officers are the most enthusiastic speeders both on and off duty, not to mention U.S. police generally doesn't like to do accident reconstruction in the first place) and if they do request it then they just throw it in as "excessive speed appears to be a cause" pretending it came out of tire marks or whatever.
I am sure that Porsche knows where your car was when the CEL came on, in the models with GPS as standard at least.
Yes every manufacturer has different implementations and different technologies. I was only referring to Nissan's implementation of GPS and "black boxes" in the GT-R as it pertains to this kind of situation.
09-01-2016, 08:07 PM
#1592
Squid42
Correct for both but as noted in other posts above it appears that the warranty reference in the GT3 specific track booklets (and in the GT3 & GT3RS booklet) changed in later editions of the booklets to remove the warranty reference. <3mph's GT3 booklet WKD 991 17 21 15 dated 04/14 has the warranty reference as does Macca's booklet but my GT3 booklet WKD 991 19 21 15 dated 10/14 does not mention warranty. It appears that PAG's legal folks decided to remove this implied warranty.
Correct for both but as noted in other posts above it appears that the warranty reference in the GT3 specific track booklets (and in the GT3 & GT3RS booklet) changed in later editions of the booklets to remove the warranty reference. <3mph's GT3 booklet WKD 991 17 21 15 dated 04/14 has the warranty reference as does Macca's booklet but my GT3 booklet WKD 991 19 21 15 dated 10/14 does not mention warranty. It appears that PAG's legal folks decided to remove this implied warranty.
Now, if the warranty booklet was a bit more clear...
The wording "and events" without further qualification will not survive contact with any lawyer.
Also, what is the definition of "a track"? Obviously you are allowed to use your car on private land, as long as the surface is suitable. What if you have a really long and really curvy driveway?
What about autocross? Are closed off airfields and parking lots "tracks"? I don't think we would say that. But now imagine you buy an old airfield and you do more and more car events and improve it. At what point does it turn into "a track"?
I think the only hard data here is whether you are on any popular enough forums or blogs or not.
09-01-2016, 08:24 PM
#1594
09-01-2016, 08:29 PM
#1595
Nordschleife Master
How many owners of either the gt3 or rs, NOT receive the track manual. It seems there's more than a few that did not get it and/or had to ask for it. I had to ask for it and did receive it after a few months. Do you think PAG did this purposely? I'm starting to wonder.
09-01-2016, 08:45 PM
#1596
Nordschleife Master
09-01-2016, 08:51 PM
#1597
Rennlist Member
Here is mine. First edition printed 08/13 supplied with my car built 11/13 ROW Europe market car (EU). WKD 991 10 21 14
It makes me wonder if they will stop warranting the 991.2 GT3 when it comes out. They didn't warranty these cars on the track with prior generations in our market. This was the first time! Probably the last too id imagine. After these DFI GT debacles I couldn't personally justify taking the risk having been through the situation already. I'd be better if to keep my 991.1 GT3 with its extended warranty for longer. It will be interesting to see if the marketing boys and bean counters at PAG have retracted this here forth...
It makes me wonder if they will stop warranting the 991.2 GT3 when it comes out. They didn't warranty these cars on the track with prior generations in our market. This was the first time! Probably the last too id imagine. After these DFI GT debacles I couldn't personally justify taking the risk having been through the situation already. I'd be better if to keep my 991.1 GT3 with its extended warranty for longer. It will be interesting to see if the marketing boys and bean counters at PAG have retracted this here forth...
09-01-2016, 09:05 PM
#1598
I'm sure they purposely made the wording change. My car was built 9/14, delivered 11/14 and the booklet was dated 10/14. I didn't get the booklet with the car and had to ask the dealer several times without success then called PCNA. Took 2 calls but they sent it. I always assumed it was just timing/ availability rather than PAG/ PCNA withholding it.
09-01-2016, 09:31 PM
#1599
Rennlist Member
This by C6 ZED is very interesting in my mind:
WKD 991 17 21 15 dated 04/14 has the warranty reference as does Macca's booklet but my GT3 booklet WKD 991 19 21 15 dated 10/14 does not mention warranty
Why so? Because PAG produced E series 991 GT3 between 09/13 - 08/14. These engines were replaced under the stop sale with "E1" (revision) series engines.
So it would appear PAG changed the USA booklet from F series production 09/14 onwards. Given they had just spent circa $100MM USD on replacing over 780 engines worldwide Im guessing this was a calculated decision to limit liability in the future.
To this day I do not believe PAG yet have a 100% reliable and proven solution for premature 991 GT3 and RS valve train wear.
Its my hunch that PAG WILL NOT WARRANTY next generation GT3 and RS for Track use...
This is not to say they will not honour claims of wear which is due to design or technical failings, but simply that they have the "right" to refuse and can work again (like in the past) to a fixed "provision" in their balance sheet rather than an almost open ended one which happened with the early 991.1 GT3....
This would all make an excellent article or book.
WKD 991 17 21 15 dated 04/14 has the warranty reference as does Macca's booklet but my GT3 booklet WKD 991 19 21 15 dated 10/14 does not mention warranty
Why so? Because PAG produced E series 991 GT3 between 09/13 - 08/14. These engines were replaced under the stop sale with "E1" (revision) series engines.
So it would appear PAG changed the USA booklet from F series production 09/14 onwards. Given they had just spent circa $100MM USD on replacing over 780 engines worldwide Im guessing this was a calculated decision to limit liability in the future.
To this day I do not believe PAG yet have a 100% reliable and proven solution for premature 991 GT3 and RS valve train wear.
Its my hunch that PAG WILL NOT WARRANTY next generation GT3 and RS for Track use...
This is not to say they will not honour claims of wear which is due to design or technical failings, but simply that they have the "right" to refuse and can work again (like in the past) to a fixed "provision" in their balance sheet rather than an almost open ended one which happened with the early 991.1 GT3....
This would all make an excellent article or book.
Last edited by Macca; 09-01-2016 at 10:03 PM.
09-01-2016, 09:40 PM
#1600
Nordschleife Master
Macca is spot on! And as I've said in the past,what better testing can you do as a company,than having 7-8000 customers,out of which 80% track their cars(according to AP),as test beds for your new competition engine?
09-01-2016, 09:53 PM
#1601
For the USA is the track warranty situation truly any different 991 vs 997? I didn't own a 997. But I have a 2012 Warranty book and it has the same language in it and it has the footnote on corrosion warranty limit for GT cars so I believe it applies to them as well. Were there a lot of warranty claims denied due to track use? Myself and others I know have tracked non GT cars of that vintage and gotten warranty repairs. What seems to be different to me is the marketing and the existence of the Race Circuit booklet. It will be interesting to see how they approach that with the next gen GT cars if they truly intend to exclude warranty for track use.
09-01-2016, 09:58 PM
#1602
Nordschleife Master
^^^ Those that received warranty repairs after failures on track in 997 GT cars,received them solely on having a good relationship with their respective dealers,who were willing to close their eyes and tell PAG failures happened elsewhere.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
09-01-2016, 10:06 PM
#1603
Don't forget how big the Internet and social media are now. How much does it cost to keep a couple of GT3 heads rotating in the mail to have them exchanged by US dealers and refurbished in Germany? Less than -say- 30% of the people who suffer from a known failure mode succeeding in making a dustup that is seen by a lot of potential customers?
The particular failure mode doesn't apply to other Porsche models, so they would have an excuse to treat the GT3 people special and still not have to pay for vanilla 911s suffering random track failures. This is probably the key in the whole game. They don't want to erode the warranty system. They need a lid to keep on it, a lid clearly visible to customers.
The particular failure mode doesn't apply to other Porsche models, so they would have an excuse to treat the GT3 people special and still not have to pay for vanilla 911s suffering random track failures. This is probably the key in the whole game. They don't want to erode the warranty system. They need a lid to keep on it, a lid clearly visible to customers.
09-01-2016, 10:07 PM
#1604
^^^ Those that received warranty repairs after failures on track in 997 GT cars,received them solely on having a good relationship with their respective dealers,who were willing to close their eyes and tell PAG failures happened elsewhere.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
09-01-2016, 10:08 PM
#1605
Rennlist Member
^^^ Those that received warranty repairs after failures on track in 997 GT cars,received them solely on having a good relationship with their respective dealers,who were willing to close their eyes and tell PAG failures happened elsewhere.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
The 991 GT cars are the first who specifically had warranty books that named track coverage.
I think the key to the local warranty claims on 997 Gt3 (and there were a number including an engine that "hydro locked" during a spin on a local circuit (very unusual issue) was goodwill with the dealer (small market etc).
Last edited by Macca; 09-01-2016 at 11:13 PM.