Setup numbers RS
12-26-2016, 07:05 PM
#421
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well said. A few of us agree on a setupmwe like and works but I don't know anyone that seemed to have figured out why it does what it does. Porsche never published a track setup.
Frustrating because those who know won't share ...
Frustrating because those who know won't share ...
12-26-2016, 10:27 PM
#422
Rennlist Member
Pete. Great summation.
I have a GT3 and had to throw all I had learned with my previous older generation car out the window. Part of this was due to the tire change from Hankook TS Z221 to MPSC2. The MPSC2 is a whole new ball game. GT3 wears fronts fastest, totally opposite to trad 911 track wear rates. Camber changes make zero difference to ultimate lap times. Factory rake and height, wing angle, I have kept. Tire pressures make the single biggest difference followed by sway bars. My MPSC2 are cycling before ultimate tire tread exhaustion. If you had the $$$ to keep the car fed with fresh MPSC2 then you needn't change anything on the GT3 from factory (-1.50/-1.50). You would be just as fast and save money on set up and experimentation! My 2.0c worth. I know the RS out of the box is trickier as it can have rubbing and shoulder cording.
I have a GT3 and had to throw all I had learned with my previous older generation car out the window. Part of this was due to the tire change from Hankook TS Z221 to MPSC2. The MPSC2 is a whole new ball game. GT3 wears fronts fastest, totally opposite to trad 911 track wear rates. Camber changes make zero difference to ultimate lap times. Factory rake and height, wing angle, I have kept. Tire pressures make the single biggest difference followed by sway bars. My MPSC2 are cycling before ultimate tire tread exhaustion. If you had the $$$ to keep the car fed with fresh MPSC2 then you needn't change anything on the GT3 from factory (-1.50/-1.50). You would be just as fast and save money on set up and experimentation! My 2.0c worth. I know the RS out of the box is trickier as it can have rubbing and shoulder cording.
12-26-2016, 10:38 PM
#423
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My manual says -1.3 front and rear for RS. No numbers for track.
And if you throw tires at the car every 3-4 days it's 9.5/10th there on most tracks, only messing with sway bars to a drivers liking / track.
Until Porsche /Manthey /German racing teams racing the RS help explain it to us weekend drovers, without selling an upgrade kit etc, just because they say we need it. Show me oem setup first and explain why I need a kit.
I just now got Racelogic /VBox so I can see changes in the data.
And I only know just barely enough to get some basics out of that beyond feeling it.
I'll need a coach to get more then Min and max V, max RPM and where I brake and where can go for throttle...
And if you throw tires at the car every 3-4 days it's 9.5/10th there on most tracks, only messing with sway bars to a drivers liking / track.
Until Porsche /Manthey /German racing teams racing the RS help explain it to us weekend drovers, without selling an upgrade kit etc, just because they say we need it. Show me oem setup first and explain why I need a kit.
I just now got Racelogic /VBox so I can see changes in the data.
And I only know just barely enough to get some basics out of that beyond feeling it.
I'll need a coach to get more then Min and max V, max RPM and where I brake and where can go for throttle...
12-27-2016, 12:37 AM
#424
Rennlist Member
yes 1.30 (1 degree 30 seconds) is 1.5 degrees (i.e. 60 second in a minute etc). factory is the same for GT3 & RS
When my 991.2 GT3 lands Im not going to touch a single thing this time other than to chang pads to RE10 and fluid to SRF. Life is too short to be buggering around with the car for two tenths. Id rather spend $500 on a day tuition to find 0.5-1s than loose time and patience playing with geometry to compromise something else on the car. I getting older and wiser now (trying to learn from gandmaster mooty). Dollar better in pocket than spent on Hunter 500 alignment machine etc
When my 991.2 GT3 lands Im not going to touch a single thing this time other than to chang pads to RE10 and fluid to SRF. Life is too short to be buggering around with the car for two tenths. Id rather spend $500 on a day tuition to find 0.5-1s than loose time and patience playing with geometry to compromise something else on the car. I getting older and wiser now (trying to learn from gandmaster mooty). Dollar better in pocket than spent on Hunter 500 alignment machine etc
12-27-2016, 02:04 AM
#425
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the explanation.
It's been a learning curve since our previous cars used such different tires and the car used tires so differently.
We had to make changes in order to make the cars work better at the track and laptimes benefitted.
There was a consensus, but now drivers and shops seem all over the place on these pages. Only a few RS drivers that I have compared notes with closely have reached a similar setup and conclusion.
Maybe a few are following this thread and also report back with more track experience.
It's been a learning curve since our previous cars used such different tires and the car used tires so differently.
We had to make changes in order to make the cars work better at the track and laptimes benefitted.
There was a consensus, but now drivers and shops seem all over the place on these pages. Only a few RS drivers that I have compared notes with closely have reached a similar setup and conclusion.
Maybe a few are following this thread and also report back with more track experience.
12-27-2016, 03:54 AM
#426
Rennlist Member
The problem is alot of folk are landing the car then going to a "race shop" spending big bucks getting a "track geometry" with no idea at all if the changes are making them quicker. Ive seen ZERO hard data from race shops on this forum demonstrating WHY & HOW their elaborate set ups are improving the car (no pyro data, back to back lap times with same driver, wear data, G force or telemetric data etc).
The ONLY place I know that the GT3 & RS are actually RACED for competition is in the german series your refer to and as far as Im concerned this is where the hot bed of real data lies. And we dont yet have access to it.
In the meantime a sensitive bum and absolute honest and realism is the best approach - you have to be consistent and driving these cars hard at a familiar track to really start to understand how small changes are affecting the chassis etc.
The ONLY place I know that the GT3 & RS are actually RACED for competition is in the german series your refer to and as far as Im concerned this is where the hot bed of real data lies. And we dont yet have access to it.
In the meantime a sensitive bum and absolute honest and realism is the best approach - you have to be consistent and driving these cars hard at a familiar track to really start to understand how small changes are affecting the chassis etc.
12-27-2016, 04:41 AM
#427
Rennlist Member
what Im trying to say is that with the other cars "Race Shops" learn to set these cars up through "Racing".
With the GT3/RS and their RWS and MPSC2 no one is "Racing" so no shops are supporting a team or racing for money other than in Europe.
This wasnt an issue before even with 997.2 GT3 etc Thise cars are still raced infact tehy are current rally cars in Europe etc.
The best way to learn what makes a car faster is racing for money?
With the GT3/RS and their RWS and MPSC2 no one is "Racing" so no shops are supporting a team or racing for money other than in Europe.
This wasnt an issue before even with 997.2 GT3 etc Thise cars are still raced infact tehy are current rally cars in Europe etc.
The best way to learn what makes a car faster is racing for money?
12-27-2016, 04:45 AM
#428
I am on 33 track days in my 91RS, I have experimented with the book settings, and my own. I only drive on one track Silverstone. The problem I have with to much camber is that the car becomes very" darty" under high speed braking, ie from 155mph and over 1.6gs under braking.
In the summer I spent 1/2 day with a good friend on set up, his full time Job is racing for a works team along side Patrick Dempsey etc, in WEC....
After a good 4 hrs on track we arrived at 1.9d all round, rear toe set to neutral.( RWS already gives up to 5d) Front bar to middle, rear to firm, PSIs hot Cup 2s, 28 Front 31 Rear..
The above seems to work best for me, whilst I do get wear on the front outer edges, I can get around 6./7 track days from a set of tyres, before to many heat cycles take effect, and grip starts dropping off..
Whilst I do understand that these are only track days, and no one is getting paid to set a time. For me its all about feeling" at one" with car, in order to get the last 5% from the 91RS. For me its this last 5% that gives all the fun....
12-27-2016, 08:39 PM
#429
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for posting!
Valuable track time with experts
That zero toe rear surprises me.
So maybe I'll try that and see if it's stable still.
I agree that with zero toe front and -2.7 and -3 rear the car was all over the place under hard braking.
I've played with front bar middle to stuff and arrived at stiff to make the tires last longer. But to be fair now I get 6 days out of the fronts and they are slow the last 2 days so I might as well let them cord.
Valuable track time with experts
That zero toe rear surprises me.
So maybe I'll try that and see if it's stable still.
I agree that with zero toe front and -2.7 and -3 rear the car was all over the place under hard braking.
I've played with front bar middle to stuff and arrived at stiff to make the tires last longer. But to be fair now I get 6 days out of the fronts and they are slow the last 2 days so I might as well let them cord.
12-27-2016, 08:51 PM
#430
Burning Brakes
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yes 1.30 (1 degree 30 seconds) is 1.5 degrees (i.e. 60 second in a minute etc). factory is the same for GT3 & RS
When my 991.2 GT3 lands Im not going to touch a single thing this time other than to chang pads to RE10 and fluid to SRF. Life is too short to be buggering around with the car for two tenths. Id rather spend $500 on a day tuition to find 0.5-1s than loose time and patience playing with geometry to compromise something else on the car. I getting older and wiser now (trying to learn from gandmaster mooty). Dollar better in pocket than spent on Hunter 500 alignment machine etc
When my 991.2 GT3 lands Im not going to touch a single thing this time other than to chang pads to RE10 and fluid to SRF. Life is too short to be buggering around with the car for two tenths. Id rather spend $500 on a day tuition to find 0.5-1s than loose time and patience playing with geometry to compromise something else on the car. I getting older and wiser now (trying to learn from gandmaster mooty). Dollar better in pocket than spent on Hunter 500 alignment machine etc
Thanks for the explanation.
It's been a learning curve since our previous cars used such different tires and the car used tires so differently.
We had to make changes in order to make the cars work better at the track and laptimes benefitted.
There was a consensus, but now drivers and shops seem all over the place on these pages. Only a few RS drivers that I have compared notes with closely have reached a similar setup and conclusion.
Maybe a few are following this thread and also report back with more track experience.
It's been a learning curve since our previous cars used such different tires and the car used tires so differently.
We had to make changes in order to make the cars work better at the track and laptimes benefitted.
There was a consensus, but now drivers and shops seem all over the place on these pages. Only a few RS drivers that I have compared notes with closely have reached a similar setup and conclusion.
Maybe a few are following this thread and also report back with more track experience.
http://www.tpcracing.com
12-27-2016, 10:35 PM
#432
Rennlist Member
I have been running the DSC unit for most of 2016 (12 track days so far). I like it on the road but Im not a huge fan on the track. Too many "live" factors changing themselves differently each time you take a different line into a corner etc. The short answer is Id give it a miss. The factory shocks dont have the resolution to make best hypothetical use of the system IMO, and it simply adds a who layer of complex programming and fettleing that is required to get it set up for each driver and track. Its definitely not plug and play as they will have you believe - I and a good friend with a GT4 have spent extensive time with the NZ importer having these set up for our cars. they can be made to work fine at one track then you go to another and the programming doesnt work so well. Stay with the four static dampers, at least your *** can calibrate and tell you whats happening with the chassis whereas the DSC is active so the parameters are changing all the time.
12-28-2016, 03:27 AM
#433
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2016
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I have been running the DSC unit for most of 2016 (12 track days so far). I like it on the road but Im not a huge fan on the track. Too many "live" factors changing themselves differently each time you take a different line into a corner etc. The short answer is Id give it a miss. The factory shocks dont have the resolution to make best hypothetical use of the system IMO, and it simply adds a who layer of complex programming and fettleing that is required to get it set up for each driver and track. Its definitely not plug and play as they will have you believe - I and a good friend with a GT4 have spent extensive time with the NZ importer having these set up for our cars. they can be made to work fine at one track then you go to another and the programming doesnt work so well. Stay with the four static dampers, at least your *** can calibrate and tell you whats happening with the chassis whereas the DSC is active so the parameters are changing all the time.
12-28-2016, 10:21 AM
#434
i think we need common ride height measuring points. where are you guys doing your measurements and what are they now? and at what tire psi(presume stock) guess this may not make much difference...
Last edited by hughp3; 12-28-2016 at 10:26 AM. Reason: added psi