Macca

Nate. All good mate. I hear you. I imported my GT3 grey market to NZ it cost me a nice dinner out under 200K NZD landed (vs 290k+ NZD same spec new in NZ). Its fair to say I was never in the market for a new GT3 in NZ. Like all cars in NZ, even GT cars, they depreciate (unlike GT RHD cars in UK right now). No one pays overs, probably because per head capita we get pretty generous allocations (i.e. 27 x 991 GT3 officially imported by PAG vs population 4 mill, compared UK has 15 x population but received maybe 220 cars etc). My insurer caps out at 300k NZD insured value on the track, so Im covered for full replacement (within 2 years of new as is standard with our policies here) within that cap currently. A new GT3RS here with options is 385K+ NZD. Over the threshold.

To be fair I found the GT3 quite intimidating forthe first half dozen track sessions I had with the car and struggled to get in the groove. I come from a hot rod 993 track car (RS++ spec). Found the speed differential "wow" but wasnt "feeling it" like the 993. I.e. couldnt chuck it around as hard or feel it working as well under me. Then 6 months ago I went out and thought "fu*k it" and just went hard and opened up a whole new layer of dynamic experience from the chassis, starting to slide it a bit, really getting into and out of corners with vengeance etc. Opened up a whole new dimension (along with highly accelerated disc/pad and tyre wear i might add). Now happy as larry with it on the track. I dont notice any need for additional aero on our local tracks but they are small and tight with elevation and straights that top out around 155mph in the GT3. Im now the fastest in our run group with the car on most tracks but still have plenty of head room as getting quicker each time out. If more aero needed I buy crawford wing and Cup front splitter for $3500 usd. If more grip needed I wait for N1 spec MPSC2 or start using Trofeo R. if more tyre life needed i go aggressive geo with shims (have them but actually reverted to stock geo recently like manifold to see if the handling changed and it actually improved a tad over previous -2.15/-1.54 geo - at the expensive of front shoulder wear I may add). Im mostly using SportAuto but have started to drive more in manual on the track (only use manual on the road) which has opened up another level of involvement. By my recognizing theres another year and 10 track days of speed improvements all above plus seat time before I wonder whats next and by then hopefully some tyre choices available and more AM stuff. IMO right now the GT3 has every opportunity to be basically as fast and as involving as the RS on the track if you start employing some of the options available for the GT3 not yet available for the RS (i.e. add aero front and rear, play with track and geo, use trofeo or go 19" with Toyo, hoosiers etc). Of course alot comes down to the driver too. There are guys in our run group who are racers who can flick a 964 race car around the track almost as fast as a 991 GT3 and I wonder what they could do with the GT3/RS. Skill can make up for alot. I run against a number of other 991 Gt3 and have realise just now if you care able to "dial in" to the Gt3 then deploy your race craft and natural ability you can start to really get the thing moving, using more of the track and taking quite remarkable approach angles using slip angles, trailing brake & trailing throttle to get some real speed through the tight stuff. It just takes some time (more maybe if you come from a much older platform).

In the local market here Im probably a natural "new GT4" buyer as they come in around 200K NZD with a few options so roughly what I paid for the GT3. With the currencies having gone upside down this last year I couldnt import one privately much cheaper really so thats my comparative swap out car.

Original idea was to move the GT3 on and replace with GT4 for a few years (with no loss on change over). However I have a fantastic, modified 993 6MT so that strategy is now under hard review having started to extract more form the GT3 on the track.

If I were in the USA and had a GT3RS inbound with a potential 100K nett profit on resale Im afraid given my fiscal position I would be very tempted to move it on quick time and use the 100K profit to fund 2-3 years of track and targa adventures with a platform such as GT4 or a used GT3. You obviously have the luxury of more latitude than I. The USD strength is only part of the equation but it has seen replacement disc/pads and tyre prices already hike 30% here on the GT3, then there is fuel etc Small change really but over 20-30 track days adds up to a fair % of the actual car.

As to the clinical feeling of the GT3, I agree thats what I felt compared to the 993 for the first 8-9 track days till I started to hook into it and understand and trust what was happening under my bum a bit more. Id be lying if I was to say the experience is as immersive as pushing the 993 to its limits but it has a different kind of high. Its like driving a turbo car when you are a NA guy. You appreciate fully what the torque addiction can be. For me 475bhp screaming to 9000 rpm along the back straight catching speeds of differential 30-40kmph more than the 993 is part of the buzz. Also one of the addictive things is traffic, if I go out mid group I can deal with traffic in the first 2 laps and then its just chasing or being chased by like equipment. With the 993 you can spend alot of time catching stuff in the corners and being blown away by it on the straights then spend half a lap catching up again, but with no power to pass.

I guess what this may mean is I should sell the GT3 in the next year, maybe even bag a small profit over what i imported it for and add some, crate the engine, send to Rothsport and ask for 3.9L 400bhp/310lbft exotic upgrade. With a little diet (50kg) the 993 would then be similar power/weight ratio to a 7 GT3 :-) and a tonne of fun to boot....

Anyway, ive sidetracked this discussion so lets get back to it...

Manifold

LOL, sometimes we do have to flip that mental switch! My experience is that the harder the car is driven, the better and more fun it is. But you're right about the wear rates and running costs going up a lot in the process.

NateOZ

I hear you on the GT3 vs RS and I think you'll be surprised how fast a 3.8L Cayman can be on the track - I'm faster around the track than what I was in the GT3. But these numbers are a little more flattering to the Cayman as it's running 100 oct fuel vs 93 oct in the GT3.

The hp per pound difference from my Cayman to the GT3 is about 6% advantage to the GT3. My Vmax on the main straight is slower (158 vs 149mph) in the Cayman, but cornering speed is 10 to 13 mph higher (eg the most technical corner on the track of 104 mph vs 117 mph).

It's basicly the same points you make on the GT3 vs RS, is while I rank the Cayman above the GT3 in my bias. Similar money, I have a car that I enjoy more and part of that is due to the fact it's setup exactly how I wanted it. I really enjoy the smaller size of the 981 vs the 991.

I'm probably flattering the RS by saying it's in number 1 and a big part of that is emotional badge bias...I think all 3 are so close.

Jimmy-D

This is a great thread no doubt

Shahano

So I drove a friend's RS for the first time last night to compare with my Gt3. I didnt push it hard enough to see how it behaves at the limit compared to the GT3 but here is what I can tell you:
-I could not believe how much better the suspension of the RS are compared to the 3.. So much more complient and comfortable, I could hardly believe it
-Mid range torque: There is definitely quite a difference there and this is the biggest difference for me between the 3 and the RS
-Road noise: Since the RS I drove has the plastic windows side and rear, it was quite a bit louder than the GT3, which could get annoying on long drives
-Exhaust note: The RS has a nicer and throatier exhaust note, Funny how 200CC makes such a big difference in the noise.

Finally, other than the driving, one thing that I absolutely fell in love with was the small diameter steering wheel, I got to have one of those in my 3. Just absolutely fantastic.
Oh and of course, that wing is damnnnn sexyy.

Macca

I hear you and I have spent time on the track mixing it up with lightly track prepared caymans and indeed they are quick. Your race prepped 3.8 with PDK would be a weapon. The weight benefits and balance handling certainly pay dividends in cornering. Interestingly my 1300kg 993 shows that in all but the fast sweepers it's not noticeably slower than the GT3 and in a few a small amount quicker. That's according to the traces and g meters (although I use a different system in each car so may not be apples for apples). It does have coil overs, full rose joined rear control arms, RS arb, solid rear subframe mounts, RS uprights tie rids with monoball top mounts all around, cartridges and camber plates plus three piece strut bars, but it's only making 280bhp for 260lbft. Hankook R comps better than the MPSC2 for track grip I think too. We have guys in our group with cup 964 (1200kg) pulling times similar to 7.2 GT3 and note even on slicks. But those cars don't wear licence plates....

rm21

Great thread. I’m loving my GT3 on the track, but am first on the list for an RS at a relatively small dealer. I probably won’t get an allocation until the 991.2 which suits me just fine, but even then, I’m not sure what I’ll do. The RS will have higher operating costs, and even with track insurance, the cost/time of replacing the unobtainium parts in the event of an incident is going to be a PITA and expensive. With the aero mods I’ve made to my GT3, I also don’t think there will be much of a time difference on track with the RS and I don’t think the higher resale logic really works if you’re doing 30+ track days a year. So I’m finding it very hard to see the RS value proposition. Like others, I’m contemplating going back to the Cayman platform, but may want to jump to the Cayman Clubsport. I see the big advantage as a full cage for safety and the option to work up to a racing series on a standard, well supported platform. With slicks, there is no doubt I’ll be faster than my GT3. The big downside is the trailering and the more involved support costs. For now, I’m good waiting for a least another full track season while more data points come in on these various options from early adopters.

TRAKCAR

This. No wishy washy driving. Smooth but the RS at least rewards and likes hard driving to the point that if I drove 997RS that way I'd crash twice a day. It just goes where you make it go.

Look forward to the GT4 experience VS RS with an unfair BGB advantage while we're still trying to figure out RS setup.

Manifold

Even if the RS is ~2 s faster on a typical US track, I don't think that would be a compelling factor for me. The GT3 is fast enough in the fastest run group at most events - sometimes too fast - and if the goal was to hang with most of the fastest cars I ever encounter (which isn't my goal), the RS wouldn't get there anyway, I'd need slicks or at least R7s on both the GT3 and RS, and then we get into issues of warranty, safety, etc. So for me, the comparison comes down to differences in subjective enjoyment and financials, and there are uncertainties for both at this point - and like rm21, I do anticipate doing 30+ track days a year ... unless I switch to a more challenging and less expensive sport like tennis!

NateOZ

I think you'll enjoy it - for me it's the pick of the drive in/drive out track cars.

Part of why I went a Cayman was I could spend the money on full safety gear/turning it no longer road legal and not have a massive hit on resale vs gutting a GT3 or GT3 RS. My run group is open lapping/free overtaking and you're out there with a lot of factory race cars. I'm not good enough for a Cup yet, so Cayman was the next best thing sticking to Porsches.

Laguna_Dude

GT3 RS is limited to 1 tire, the Cup 2... so let's say I roll into Auto Gallery and buy one of their RS' for $399k+tax...... so we are talking $425k out the door... now imagine my GT3.. MSRP of $139k+tax.. so was about $150k out the door... now I then drop $2,600 for some Trofeo R's which are good for over a second per 60-sec lap over Cup 2.. I now have spent 36% of the price of an RS and can run about the same lap time; even if the GT3 is 98% as fast as the RS at that point.. the value to performance is in the GT3.. at 60% less $$ out of pocket (and less than 2% slower per lap). I feel the RS is a great value and special car if purchased at MSRP; I feel that price delta over GT3 is worth it (MSRP to MSRP). Anything above that is simply the cost to have one.. not of any value in terms of performance. And really that is not bad either; as people have different reasons and needs and situations. I personally; simply refuse to pay the premium; I would however, buy an RS at MSRP.. no problem.

Manifold

Since I'm not naming names, I don't think I'll be violating confidentiality by saying this. FWIW, I recently talked with someone who knows a couple pros who've tracked both the RS and the GT3. They both like the GT3 better, because apparently the RS can be scary loose when not going fast enough for the aero to do its job. Do take with a grain of salt but, personally, I just lost interest in getting an RS ...

karimgt3

May i ask what's the reason behind it being loose?

First it is argued that the RS is just a GT3 with a wing.. So when this wing is not operational (low speeds), it should act like the GT3, if not better, since it has wider tires, thus more grip..? Yes i know it has different suspension, but that doesn't explain or guarantee it being loose at low speeds since many reviews have mentioned it being softer than the GT3..

Manifold

My info of course isn't firsthand, so I don't know all the specifics, but I would imagine that, in designing the car to account for the aero, the setup and behavior would be different from the GT3 at lower speeds where aero has less effect.

Given how controversial the claim is, I was kind of reluctant to post what I did, but my source is reliable.

Maybe this explains why Chris Harris was able to so readily "back it in" with the RS on the slower test track?

karimgt3

"Scary loose" may be hard for me to believe since no one else ever mentioned it.. i.e: jethro in the tight corners of anglesey, or harris on the technical track he was driving on..

But then again if you trust your source and this convinces you that the RS is not worth it then you've made the right choice keeping the 3!

Just saw your edit: harris seemed extremely positive about it!