Z356

Great posts Petevd!

But let me comment on these others on this thread:

Correct.

PAG is holding up the flag by fielding their own factory efforts (notice which teams are winning) with the best technology & drivers they can muster...but many of their long standing customer teams (e.g. Flying Lizards) have deserted Porsche due to the latter's inability to offer them the hope of a successful racing program - chassis & engine development & support - that would make them competitive at the track!

Correct.

Here is the official gt entry list of the 2014 24 Hours of Le Mans with five privateers in 911 RSR's:

GTE Pro
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Gianmaria Bruni
Ram Racing Ferrari 458 Italia Matt Griffin
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Davide Rigon
Corvette Racing Chevrolet Corvette-C7 Jan Magnussen
Corvette Racing Chevrolet Corvette-C7 Oliver Gavin
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Bruno Senna
Porsche Team Manthey Porsche 911 RSR Patrick Pilet (PAG is now the 51% owner of Manthey-Racing GmbH!)
Porsche Team Manthey Porsche 911 RSR Marco Holzer
SRT Motorsports Viper GTS-R Rob Bell
SRT Motorsports Viper GTS-R Jeroen Bleekemolen
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Darren Turner
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Stefan Mucke

GTE Am
Ram Racing Ferrari 458 Italia Johnny Mowlem
Team Sofrev Asp Ferrari 458 Italia Fabien Barthez
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Peter Ashley Mann
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Luis Perez Companc
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Yannick Mallegol
IMSA Performance Porsche 911 GT3 RSR Erik Maris
SMP Racing Ferrari 458 Italia Andrea Bertolini
Prospeed Competition Porsche 911 GT3 RSR François Perrodo
Dempsey Racing-Proton Porsche 911 RSR Patrick Dempsey
AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia Stephen Wyatt
Craft Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Frank Yu
Proton Competition Porsche 911 RSR Christian Ried
8 Star Motorsports Ferrari 458 Italia Vicente Potolicchio
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Kristian Poulsen
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Richie Stanaway
Aston Martin Racing Aston Martin Vantage V8 Paul Dalla Lana
Reserves:
JMW Motorsport Ferrari 458 Italia George Richardson
Team Taisan Ferrari 458 Italia Matteo Malucelli
Imsa Performance Porsche 911 GT3 RSR Raymond Narac
Prospeed Competition Porsche 911 GT3 RSR Xavier Maassen
Risi Competizione Ferrari 458 Italia Tracy Krohn
'Garage 56'
Nissan Motorsports Nissan ZEOD RC Lucas Ordonez

*************************************

Compare that to the gt entry list of the 2011 Le Mans race that I attended (see attached photos) which featured ten privateers in 911 RSR's:

GTE-Pro Entries
51: AF Corse Ferrari 458 Italia
55: BMW Motorsport BMW M3
56: BMW Motorsport BMW M3
58: Luxury Racing Ferrari 458 Italia
59: Luxury Racing Ferrari 458 Italia
64: Lotus Jetalliance Lotus Evora
65: Lotus Jetalliance Lotus Evora
66: JMW Motorsport Ferrari 458 Italia
71: AF Corse Ferrari 458
73: Corvette Racing Corvette C6.R ZR-1
74: Corvette Racing Corvette C6.R ZR-1
75: ProSpeed Competition Porsche 997 RSR
76: IMSA Performance-Matmut Porsche 997 RSR
77: Team Felbermayr-Proton Porsche 997 RSR
79: Jota Sport Aston Martin Vantage
80: Flying Lizard Motorsport Porsche 997 RSR
88: Team Felbermayr-Proton Porsche 997 RSR
89: Hankook-Team Farnbacher Ferrari 458 Italia

GTE-Am Entries
50: Larbre Competition Chevrolet Corvette C6.R
57: Krohn Racing Ferrari F430 GT2
60: Gulf AMR Middle East Aston Martin Vantage
61: AF Corse Ferrari F430 GT2
62: CRS Racing Ferrari F430 GT2
63: Felbermayer Proton Porsche 997 RSR
68: Robertson Racing Doran Ford GT
70: Larbre Competiton Porsche 997 RSR
81: Flying Lizard Motorsports Porsche 997 RSR
83: JMB Racing Ferrari F430 GT2
GTE Reserves
Robertson Racing Doran Ford GT
Tolimit Arabia Porsche 997 RSR
ProSpeed Competition Porsche 997 RSR
Young Driver AMR Aston Martin Vantage
BMS Scuderia Italia Porsche 997 RSR


******************************

Gents: The age of competitive 911 racing seems to be coming to an end. Get ready for the future. And it will not be a turbo-charged gt3 RS (although PAG might put that up as an interim solution). The 'great white hope' at Porsche is the upcoming mid-engined 960. And the future of Porsche's professional and amateur racing at tracks all around the world will soon depend on the success of that model - the FeFi! Don't bet against it - you will lose! And keep you eyes open for what the FIA/ACO decides about the combined gt classes in 2015. That might tell you more the technical specs & direction these cars will take in the near future than anything else we might speculate here!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

.

FastLaneTurbo

Petevb wrote: “I understand, but I look at it pragmatically. Porsche is in an unfair fight: the GT3 is competing against cars like the Vette and GT-R that clearly are not required to maintain the same profit margins it is. Given this they are doing a hell of a job.

Porsche can clearly build some of the best "no limits" motors, but they are hugely expensive: I look with envy at the 2 hp per pound 918 motor as an example of what Porsche can do when it wants to. Put a similar engine in the GT3, however, and it would probably kill the car: you'd need to charge 458 prices.”
————————————————————————————————————————————————
Many thanks for the comments and thoughtful presentation Peter. I agree with most every point you make: Given unlimited funds, development time, exotic space-age high-temperature alloys,
and sophisticated computer-aided knock sensing circuitry, reliable 4.0 liter normally aspirated engines well above 500 HP can certainly be designed and manufactured. And I also agree that for such an engine, Porsche would have to charge at least 458 prices and it would kill the GT3.
Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

I also agree with you that “Porsche is in an unfair fight” but not necessarily due to their high profit margins but rather their competitors larger and Turbo-charged higher HP Engines. All commercial car companies are on resource-limited development expense budgets.

I further agree with you that Porsche has done an outstanding job racing competitively considering the limitations of available engineering resources which they have chosen to spread over a huge array of 46 totally new models in 7 model lines since 2012, arguably more than any other car company. Adding to the complexity is Porsche’s attempt to apply the newest cutting-edge Hybrid Electric propulsion Engine technology across many diverse models, from the over $1,000,000 918, through the Panamera, while developing additional GT models, new race cars. and clean-sheet future models with larger V8 Engines such as the 960 which will be far more competitive.

My suggestion that using Porsche’s existing Turbo Engine technology would be a viable interim alternative was based upon lowering costs and engineering resources. Earlier Turbocharged models produced incredible racing successes. The 1976 936 Spyder, developing 540 HP from 2.1 Liters won LeMans in 1976, 1977 and 1981. The 1977 935 developing 630 hp from 2.8 Liters won the 1977 Manufacturers World Championship. The 1978 935 developed 845 HP from 3.2 Liters. The Turbocharged 1982 956 and later 962 Models won LeMans victories in 1982, 1983, 1984 and 1985.
The Turbocharged 1998 911 GT1 won LeMans out-of-the-box with its 3.1 Liter Twin Turbo Engine.
And today’s 991 Twin Turbo Engine produces more Torque than any competitive 3.8 Liter Engine.
Until the larger-engined 960 is ready for production, this just might let Porsche hold on to GT Class wins.

In any event Peter, it is very unlikely that Porsche will pay any attention to either of our
GT3RS Engine recommendations. That engine has undoubtedly already been designed and
tested with parts ordered and manufactured. We can only engage in idle speculation as
we eagerly await our GT3’s new engines and the renewed opportunity to drive this great car.
Whatever engine has been selected for the RS, I’m certain it will be a spectacular DE track car.
Whether it’s performance improvement will justify its price increase and offset the expected
degradation of the GT3’s comfort as a DD remains to be seen and evaluated by each of us.

Petevb

I don't think we see eye to eye on the production cost of this class of motor. At the power and weight levels we're discussing prices shouldn't be pushed into the "exotic" realm, we're simply a step above the "cooking" 991s.

Over the last couple decades the power of street Mezger motors has steadily increased at around 3% per year, and that's ignoring any additional displacement. Thus while a mid 90s 993 RS stretched to 300 hp, a 997.2 3.8 RS pushed a cool 50% more power from roughly the same displacement half a decade ago. Today's 991 motor picks up where the Mezger left off, using technologies like direct injection that until recently seemed unobtainium. Carry this curve forward and add a displacement bump to 4.0 and you'd get a 2016 model year 991 RS rated at 525 hp, almost certainly with room to grow from there. The pace of this development curve roughly mirrors all street motors from any manufacture: specific power of normally aspirated motors has been steadily improving across the board. I see no reason to think it should stop now.

I suspect what puts the GT3 motor into an entirely different price class than the "exotics" is largely its weight: it's still roughly 2x the weight per hp of the 918 motor, which is a phenomenal amount when you think about it. It is after all built on the derivative of a regular 911 block. This figure, while good for a regular engine, still indicates to me that it's miles away from what Porsche can do when it decides to get "exotic". I therefore assume that it's priced accordingly.

I fully agree that whatever is in the 991 RS has long been decided. It'll be very interesting to see what they've managed.

brake dust

Hartmut Kristen had indicated in an EXCELLENCE article that Porsche was not willing to invest millions into a new motorsport engine until the new 2015/2016 technical regulations are in place. As Z356 stated, the FIA was attempting to consolidate both the ACO and the FIA GT3 regulations into one GT class. Last I heard, the combined ACO/FIA GT "talks" have broke down with no agreement. Nevertheless there will be new regulations soon. All indications is that Porsche Motorsort will wait for the new technical regulations to be in place before developing a new engine.

Have been in agreement with Z356 that the next top level GT car from Porsche with a motorsport derived engine will be the 960.

JasonAndreas

Eventually the engine development engineers that are doing the 919 motor will be available to work on the 9A1...

FastLaneTurbo

[QUOTE=Petevb;11413216]I don't think we see eye to eye on the production cost of this class of motor. At the power and weight levels we're discussing prices shouldn't be pushed into the "exotic" realm, we're simply a step above the "cooking" 991s.

After 35 years of completing high-tech projects involving engineering challenges,
I have learned the following:

"The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time and resources
The remaining 10% takes the other 90%"

Or put another way:
"When you have completed 90% of the project, you are half done!"

The difference between 99% reliability and 100% reliability comes as close to infinity as you will ever get. NASA learned that a long time ago.

Petevb

An old aerospace the rule of thumb is that finding the "last 5%" of performance is 95% of the cost. It's a fairly universal truism in engineering, but one must take care applying it.

In 1986 Porsche's 959 supercar represented that "last 5%", and inflation adjusted it cost more than $1 million per copy to build. Less than two decades later a "regular" 911 turbo would run rings around one at 10% of the cost, and by most metrics a Carrera S will do the same at almost half the price again.

Thus you can't apply lessons learned from yesterday's "state of the art" and get a valid answer today. Instead you need to recognize that we're the river we're on is constantly flowing, even when it's not obvious by glancing at the river bank.

• In 1950 80 hp per liter was a good effort in Formula 1, normally aspirated of course.
• Output crossed 100 hp per liter in the mid 50s. Street engines with this specific power followed about 40 years later.
• By 1967 they had achieved 133 hp/ liter, the same as is available in a 458 SP or 918 today.
• F1 approached 200 hp per liter around 1990, roughly the same as a street legal BMW S1000RR motorcycle achieved in 2010.
• F1 engines crossed 300 hp per liter in roughly 2003 and continued climbing.

Thus when you step back you see a clear progression, again around 3% per year. Thus what was massively expensive or flat out impossible a decade ago becomes not just achievable but eventually even affordable today.

Not only is the progression consistent, but Porsche plans for it. I'd challenge you to name a new Porsche motor platform that didn't see an upgrade over its lifespan. In fact it's so obviously predictable that it's a little embarrassing, with the mid models software limited so that they can get a mid-life bump to boost sales. The new 991 GT3 motor smacks a little of that, if I'm honest, though clearly not half as badly. Still, they've so clearly left headroom, both on piston speed (10% lower than industry leaders, lower than the old 4.0) and the RPM where peak power is made (8% below max revs), that I can't escape the feeling that it was built slightly detuned from the beginning to leave room for an RS above it. Which would be entirely expected...

At any point along the historical performance curve, be it F1, Porsche, or another make, it would have been easy to look at the river bank and say "we've stopped". However that wasn't the case then, and history suggests it's not the case now. There is nothing technically magical about 500 hp in a 911 motor: in the big picture it's just another number.

Nothing last forever, of course, and eventually the normally aspirated motor is likely to be replaced. Not because it can't be improved, however, but because of rules and/ or a switch to an even "better" technology (ie electric).
But we're not talking about trying to achieve 100% reliability. Acceptable reliability with higher performance bypasses this issue.

FastLaneTurbo

Petevb said: "But we're not talking about trying to achieve 100% reliability. Acceptable reliability with higher performance bypasses this issue."

Now you have indeed touched the central core of the issue. We have no idea of what the acceptable
reliability of the "New Porsche" is under VW management but I suspect, like most huge companies with
armies of lawyers needing to justify their existence and their usual high salaries, the "Acceptable Reliability" is extremely high and the "Acceptable Risks" are extremely low. In the 5 decades I've been driving Porsches, their have been many mechanical problems with a far higher frequency than the 99%
reliability of our GT3's "old" engines. The "Old Independent Porsche" has never recalled and issued a "stop driving" order recommendation based upon 2 incidents in 875 cars. I fear that under VW ownership and the demonstrated lack of risk tolerance for failure shown by most large companies, Porsche's sports cars will become less innovative and cutting edge as product lines of SUVs and 4 Door Sedans become the largest contributors of corporate profits and revenues.

I applaud VW for bringing Porsche back into Racing at the highest levels through prototype development again, but it will surely be a very long time for that technology to reach our beloved sports cars.

BTW, I bought the high-reving BMW S1000 RR motorcycle you referenced as a 2012 Model.
BMW had the same problem with connecting rod failures but refused to provide new engines requiring their dealers to rebuild the bike and its motors. I dumped mine losing thousands of dollars, as did many other BMW owners - and will never again buy a BMW product.

Another factoid that may interest you is Porsche's 935/78 produced 845 HP from only 3.2 Liters for an output of 263 HP / Liter in 1978. But race engines only need to last a single race before being rebuilt.
My 1976 DeKon Monza produced 600 HP from 350 Cu. Ins but rebuild was recommended after 15 hours.
at a cost of $15K.
MY 1995 GT2 TT Dynoed at 550 HP (rated at 450 HP) but Porsche recommended rebuild at 30 Hours.
Mine lasted 50 hours before blowing up during my race at Watkins Glen. With engine rebuild costing $75K
and tranny at $25K, those high HP race engines are totally unsuited for a DD / Track car.
The amazing thing to me is how well built our present Porsche TT and N/A engines are considering the
thrashing we give them on the track.

Petevb

It's an interesting question, has the "risk tolerance" changed? Probably, as will happen as any company or an individual grows up...

However when I do the math (many cars were never delivered, low total fleet miles, more than 2 engine failures that I'm aware of), I get something like 1% failure every 2500 miles. Or put another way, a 1 out of 3 cars failing catastrophically and potentially lethally over 100k miles. I know this math doesn't account for failure distributions, etc. Still, the decision to issue a "stop drive" seems pretty logical to me.

Then you'll love this... I mentioned earlier that Porsche treats Motorsports as a profit center, unlike other car manufactures... Yet their race cars are relatively cheap for what you get: a cup car, for example, is great value vs building your own or even most other race cars. Why?

Porsche has a simple strategy: get more cars into the field, then make money on the maintenance and rebuilds. And that's exactly what they do.

Parts, both engine and suspension, are designed to time out at relatively low hours. They don't need to be: as we said they are racing in either "balance of performance" classes or one-make series. Thus there is generally no competitive advantage to be gained by making a motor last only 30 hours (or 60, or 90, depending). Technically they could easily make them last longer, again look at recent F1 experience, but is that in their financial interest? It really isn't, as Porsche is rebuilding those motors regularly at substantial profit. And as I'm sure you know, they insure they don't get competition by doing things like requiring a factory seal, or simply refusing to sell any Motorsports internal engine components.

The most amusing example of this pricing structure occurred a few years ago when a well known team got a race motor rebuilt. The bill was substantially more than they could have simply purchased the same motor for new. The team was understandably upset, and Porsche transitioned to leasing motors instead of selling them to avoid the issue in the future...

It's useful to keep these philosophies in mind when considering motor reliability, which teams are running with Porsche, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they are making money selling Cup cars, though I admit to occasionally wondering about priorities.

BTW, the above is one of the main reasons why the 991 GT3 is interesting, as much as I'd have preferred a few changes. Comparing Cup motor rebuild schedules to a 2014's 100k mile on-track warranty, I must admit that a 991 GT3 looks like a smoking deal. Perhaps even when compared to subsidized Camaro Z28s... I suspect most 997 GT3 track rats have yet to catch on to what a deal the new car is from that point of view.

JasonAndreas

"Old Independent Porsche" would have issued a TSB in a single country, not told anybody and then blamed the owner and refused warranty coverage when their engines blew up.

9972RS

^ seriously. I wonder why they even issued a stop sale. Was this problem so severe to warrant a stop sale?

look at the center lock issue, coolant pipe issue.

GrantG

If we're including turbo race motors, I believe the F1 cars from almost 30 years ago approached 1,000 hp per Liter (around 1,400 hp from 1.5L 4-cyl) in qualifying trim

jcoles

Hello GT3 owners I think I've read and watched every 991 GT3 review out there and just love the car from what I've seen and read. This weekend I stopped by my local P dealer and saw two sitting on the showroom floor waiting on their new engines. Seeing the car in person is a must. I think it's one of the best looking cars I've seen.

I've owned about 7 Porsche's but never a GT3. I've never been in one either. Past cars were 996 turbo and 997 turbo and other NA models.
I'm only a weekend driver and maybe one driving event a year.

I was surprised to learn the dealership had an open allocation and could in fact get me a build date around Sept or Oct. I thought I would have to wait at least 10 months. He also said PFS has rates 2.9% to even 1.9% using another bank. That really surprised me. I don't have to finance it but certainly makes the decision a little easier with such low interest rates.

My big concern is ordering a car I've never driven or had the chance to ride in. Do you think these are just too loud and stiff to enjoy on LA streets for most people?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Not sure how long those spots will be open. Thanks.

orthojoe

Great post with very interesting information about the motorsports program. The mezger fanbois wont be happy.

Mike in CA

If you've read the reviews you know what the reviewers are saying about the usability of the car as a DD and you're not even considering driving the car daily. There has been tons of discussion here around this topic so I won't try to summarize it all. But the short answer to your question is absolutely not! Unless you are incredibly sensitive to ride quality, or really need to have a quiet cruising experience, the 991 GT3 is perfectly useable on the street. Everything else aside, if that's your main concern, don't let it keep you from getting the car.