911Jetta

This is not another argument or comment about manual vs. auto.

I love how Porsche engineers and applies technology to it's cars, especially the 911. It waited a long time to add ABS, but 20+ years later the system would still be considered smooth compared to what many manufactures are offering today. Porsche waited on PDK until it nailed the concept... no SMG here. It even seemed to nail (motorized) rear wheel steering on it's first try.

So my question is....
Are things really happening so fast as the 991 GT3 charges to red line that PDK really is mandatory?

Owners and reviews alike are starting to mention this more and more to justify Porsche's decision to offer only one transmission. I can understand that all the car's systems are designed with this transmission and that it makes the car faster. And, that it's even a very fun transmission. But are things really happening so fast that PDK really is necessary to fully enjoy the car? Not talking about lap times...

I would think with the new engines extended RPM range, you would have more time or flexibility to shift?

My 964 red lines at 6,800 (its in the power band from 4,000+). So with less than 3,000 to work with I need to be able to shift fast.

A 997 GT3 has an 8,400 red line; I'm assuming there's at least 4,000 plus RPM to work with, so there is even more time to shift. I've been lucky enough to sit in the passenger seat during a track day, and things didn't seem too frantic....

Now the red line is at 9,000 and somehow things are too frantic to shift for yourself?

6,800... 8,400... 9,000 Why does the increased red line necessitate a new transmission?
(I understand gearing and acceleration rate play a big part in this too)

Awesome car, love everything about it! Just curious...

This video is really helpful to understand what I'm talking about.

Manifold

https://rennlist.com/forums/11113741-post13.html

Bad link: https://rennlist.com/forums/11113741-post13.html

frayed

No, I don't think so. The 9k redline buzzy lil motor in my Honda S2000 wasn't too frantic to shift for yourself.

But the quick shifting PDK allows one to stay on the pipe under hard charging.

I think they went PDK for a variety of reasons: performance, warranty claims, customer demand.

Mike in CA

Agree. Porsche is first and foremost a European car company, and they are attuned to that market. Look at what it's European competitors like Ferrari and McLaren have done with regard to MT's. Some may say those cars are in a different price range, but you'd better believe that Porsche sees them as the target, and vice versa. Likely the biggest reason that Porsche still offers MT's at all is because of the US market, and things are beginning to change here too.

Personal preference aside, and regardless of whether a MT would work with the 991 GT3 (it obviously would), PDK-S is probably a better overall match for the car which is why a lot of people, including respected journos like CH, are expressing that opinion.

mooty

it's the lure to make street car feel like race car. so says marketing.
if u follow that, then once u drive a sequential cup, u will understand why H pattern is no good compared to sequential. now I'm not saying PDk is like sequential or that PDk is god send. but if u follow that logic of race car on street, then the progression is correct.

911Jetta

Sorry I'm too wordy at times, so maybe my original meaning was lost. I don't mean personal preference, competitors, lap times, market, etc.

I'm interested in understanding the physical and/or psychological demands that would make a manual shifter difficult to control or enjoy in this car. The "frantic" comments and there's too much going on, too fast, just sounds silly, but I don't obviously have any personal experience.

Harris' comment @ 25:00.
"I'm not sure you could enjoy this enjoy this engine with a manual as you can with paddles because there's too much going on between 8 & 9"

I don't understand what that means?


I think I was too wordy again... =;>

Mike in CA

No worries, I have the same issue....

I think he's making a relative comparison between the two and not an absolute statement and it may come across as slightly overstated. But the engine does rev very freely, and it's not just that the shifts between gears happen quickly but that the driver can choose an upshift or downshift almost literally in the time it takes to think about it, so it's easy to keep the engine in the powerband.

That may sound like marketing hype, but somehow it all fits with the rhythm of driving this particular car quickly. A MT would be enjoyable too, but a high performance car with a gearbox that feels very much like a sequential that is also useable on the street, is impressive.

tmg57

If you follow enough forums and read enough reviews, you can find where people have speculated about almost everything. It doesn't seem to me that the decision to supply only PDK transmissions was based on the "frantic activity theory".

reidry

Chris Harris is making a simple statement about a topic that is significantly more complex.

His statement should should technically read like this, "I don't think you would enjoy this car as much if this engine was coupled with a manual gearbox and differential using the exact gear ratios chosen for the 991 GT3 PDK-S and e-Diff."

And in that statement he is quite possibly correct. If the 991 GT3 was a manual the gear ratios would likely be different, up to and including the ratio of the e-Diff. Any car you purchase is a package, the manufacturer has made a significant investment in time and money to deliver the drive train portion of the package that has a motor, transmission, differential, ECU and other electronic parts that all work well together including the operator (driver).

Likely Porsche did move towards PDK at least partially due to their perception of the market.

Porsche certainly could have delivered a 991 GT3 with the current 9A1 based engine and a completely acceptable manual transmission. I haven't read first hand account, but it has been stated here on the forum that Porsche did indeed build a 991 GT3 mule or prototype with a manual gearbox and ran it against the PDK-S equipped prototypes. In the end Porsche chose to only pursue the 991 GT3 with a PDK-s. If indeed it is fact that they built one, it shows that it could be done. The manual car may also have had other engine tweaks including cams and ECU tuning to further optimize that package.

As we stand now, a person with deep enough pockets could probably Frankenstein a 991 GT3 with a manual gearbox - however I submit to the group that the modded car would likely not be as cohesive a total package as the current 991 GT3 PDK-s car.

Ryan

911dev

^^ Mike and Reidry, very well said.

I interpreted what CH said exactly as such.

FLM911

I look at it this way.

Ive flown planes and helicopters. Modern ones are pretty easy, with a number of mechanical and electronic aids that help the pilot not have to worry about every little thing. There are mandated courses on "Human Factors" which highlight stress and pilot overload when things get interesting in the air. Basically you want your focus on the job in hand (flying the mission, getting to where your going etc) and not mucking about trying to fiddle with a complex mechanical machine.

Car gearboxes are in the same category. The more you have to do, the less time your brain has to focus on the task in hand (going faster around a track for example). As the stress builds (and it does for everyone as speeds increase) its good to have more brain cycles. Sequential transmissions are great and help. PDK-S Ive found to be outstanding so far and give some serious time back to focus on driving. Im not a fan of old mechanical things, so rowing the gears is simply a necessity which im happy to never have to do again. Not after driving the PDKS car, or say McLarens 12C which I found very similar.

Less you have to worry about, more focus you can bring. It shouldnt detract from the enjoyment if your goal is to go faster. If you get your kicks from doing EVERYTHING yourself, then a manual is better for you.

My 0.02c.

Im not going back.

Mike in CA

^^Very well put....

0Q991

+1

GrantG

If you shift at 9k with the 7spd in the new GT3 (RS may have even higher redline and lower/closer gears), there is much less than 4k operating range. In most gears, a redline shift drops you down to over 7k in the next gear (less than 2,000 rpm working range). That's the beauty of 7 close ratios (unlike the 5 wide ratios in your G50 in the 964).

Even so, I'd still like to give it a go manually...

Manifold

Valid points when driving for pro racing or transport, but when driving for fun on a track, many give priority to making the experience as engaging as possible, regardless of how much speed needs to be compromised in order to maintain a given level of safety. No, I haven't driven this GT3, but I don't see how PDK-S can be nearly as interactive as manual (confirmed to some extent when I tracked a 981 Cayman with PDK).