est8esq

I'm admittedly confused by these comments coming from someone like yourself w/ the open and notorious username like yours, coupled w/ the volume of posts you've commented? You're obviously a "sleeper" and most likely much more knowledgeable and experienced than this comment suggests? Certainly, more experienced than me, anyway.

But, wouldn't you agree there's more to driving than stomping on brakes and turning?

One MAJOR comment I think I should point out about this GT3 is that the pdk in "auto" vs. "manual" is WOLRD's different!!!!!

I've forced myself to do both. As such, I will tell you auto in my opinion stinks. It's fine on acceleration and combination turns, but not as intuitive as I personally like and need on the downshifts. In my experience, herein lies the difference.

Unlike prior gen tiptronic or even F1 paddles on Ferraris, this GT3 in manual is truly manual, minus the left foot. It is not dummy proof where at redline it cheats and shifts if you don't, it holds and coughs and sputters letting you know you're an idiot and forgot to do something. Tiptronic and F1 shifts for you, even in manual.

I respectfully encourage those viewing that have their opinions, while feeling like they do about manuals to just hold final judgement until driving one of these pdk's first. That's all I'm saying.

Mike in CA

Peter, this argument can (and probably will) go on until the end of time and not be resolved. Drive a 991 GT3 and then decide for yourself. You can't really know what it's like otherwise.

In my quote that you referenced I simply pointed out that PDK in a Cayman is very different than PDK-S in a 991 GT3 and someone can't reasonably extrapolate their experience in one to the other. That's all....

Manifold

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Few will get to drive it on the road at length before deciding, and far fewer will get to try it on track.

Conekilr

Agree 100%.

As AP said "just shut up and drive". If after driving it you come to the conclusion that you prefer the manual, so be it, you would have made a decision based on actual experience and not speculation which has been going on ad nauseum. It seems every thread ends up being about manual vs. PDK-S. There is no right answer here just different stokes for different forks...Enough already !!!

0Q991

^ +1

911Jetta

Read that again. There are lots of posts covering that. Subconsciously, I wrote so much in my intro. to try to get away from that discussion. (IF possible?!)



Great comments Richard, that is more along the lines of what I'm trying to understand.

I didn't mean rev drop between gears. I used those numbers to describe useable RMP range. The meat of the powerband, as you would use the car on the road. From 4+ on, the 964 3.6 is growling and ready to go, but limited to 6,800 RPM. Maybe the 997 GT3 is good from 4k to 8,400, and now the 991 GT3 bumps that up even further.

So while cruising on the road, in a 991, I would assume you would often find yourself @ 4k. If you floored it, you then have 5,000 RPM to play with before you need to shift. A 997 GT3 is similar. My slower accelerating, longer geared 964 only has 2,800 RPM to play with, that said time-in-gear is longer in a 964.

What gets me is that no one mentioned PDK was needed to enjoy a 997 GT3 on the road. I'm trying to understand what line, what new frontier the 991 GT3 crossed?

Love it Justin! I think I'll start with the RSR, or your "old" 934. Can't wait to see you guys again.





Yes it is!

So true on the track, but how much of that applies to justifying PDK on the road?

I'm just so struck my Chris Harris' road test comment:
Harris' comment @ 25:00.
"I'm not sure you could enjoy this engine with a manual as you can with paddles because there's too much going on between 8 & 9"

I'm sure lots of motorcycles rev even hard and faster than the GT3, they seem to be enjoyable on the road with clutches.

Thanks for the comments guys, I'm off to learn more about "human factors", that's the key for me to understand this topic better. Then I'll be prepared to drive the Lambo... but only just barely!

Mike in CA

That's probably very true. What that means, though, is that some will never be able to have opinions based on actual experience with PDK-S and a 991 GT3. They can read reviews and comments from others about it, and they can guess what it might be like to drive it, but they can't really know until they've tried it.

People post on here all the time about Corvettes. I've never owned or driven a Corvette. I've made comments about Corvette styling because that's something I can see with my own eyes. But I've never made a negative comment on what it would be like to drive a Corvette, or whether I'd enjoy the experience. If I did comment over and over again about those things, that would be a little lame, don't you think?

Manifold

I think many can confidently say that they'd prefer manual in the GT3, if it was offered. And there are good arguments that it should have been offered. Now why continue to complain if Porsche has already made their decision? Because continuing complaints may lead to Porsche offering the manual at some point, either in the GT3 or RS, and no one can say with certainty that it won't happen. Plus, car guys can be obsessive and passionate, and tend to whine when they can't have their way.

Mike in CA

I understand why someone could confidently say they'd rather have a MT if shifting with a stick and clutch is a primary part of their driving experience. I honestly am not trying to argue that, again.

The only reason I got into this discussion was because you said that your experience with a PDK Cayman could give you insight into a PDK-S 991 GT3; I suggested that it actually couldn't.

Other than that, I can relate to being an obsessive car guy....

TRAKCAR

I post mostly to try to catch up to Mooty's post count.

OK, stomp is not the best word, don't take me too literally or seriously.
I mean just gas and brake with steering is just less difficult than it is to heel and toe through the gears and trail brake a car into a corner I suppose. I feel its a big "win" when I nail a corner with a higher minimum speed and it sticks getting a few revs out of the car at track our while the VBox reads another -0.10secs.

Maybe the simple fact of taking your hand of the wheel and push the lever forward would at least make me feel like a Rally driver (Porsche finally got that right instead of the idiot push button on the steering wheel and the pull rear for downshifts). But still, less skill involved, you're taking away from my hobby.

I know it sounds like I am judging, but I'm more balking at the no choice and worried that Porsche took away "my car".
I'd buy another 997RS but since the no manual 991 GT3 was released they shot up and now they cost the same as the new RS and have no warranty. I'm not paying over MSRP for a 3 year old car, I chose to go opposite and try the older stuff first to see what the hype is about to carry me over.

I've also said that maybe I can learn to love the car, even with PDK-S, maybe even learn to love the PDK-S itself. I'm just worried about Porsche going less pure. Laptime is no excuse, others have been faster for years and years.

I'm instructing as soon as they give me a student with a GT3 ;-)
PBOC at PBIR in March perhaps? I raced there today, not the best track, but enough to try it out.

Anyone know about if Porsche is doing track days a la Camp4S I just did in Finland? Even if its follow the leader with 3 point seat belts, I can probably take away enough to decide at Barber.
Just to buy a $150K car to see if I like it, knowing that if I do, the RS is coming next year and that makes me wait for the RS. I'm first in line, I'll check out PDK-S via Euro delivery at the Ring / Spa etc and sell if I come home.

Exactly, Corvette is trying a LOT harder to get our business, even offers 50% off for a similar lap time.

Oh, I want to drive one alright; I say, shut up and let me drive one already.

Agreed, almost bought one, I even went to the dealer but the salestards and initial fit and finish made me puke in my mouth a little and I left.
Still, at 50% less an easier experiment than the GT3..

Sure, and for many of you the car is awesome, faster and better in every way, except not very track abuse and fire resistant..

I just cant help thinking of the new GT3 as a great driving, crazy fast GTR, but, boring and limp mode after 2 sessions...

AP did a 180. First we drink the "its a race car" cool aide, now "its faster".
Shut up and drive. Right, I'm sure it drives nice.

I'm not confident I will hate the PDK-S but I do worry about it. Sure I can buy one and take a 20K+ loss (Roll bar, seat belts, seats, clear bra + track miles depreciation) to find out, but with the RS coming I figure let me test the best one and with some luck I don't have to and there will be a manual. I'm not comparing it to regular PDK because I hate that for sure.

If you track just occasionally and live where there are corners and use it as a daily driver this is a can do everything car. If the purpose is mainly to go to the track, not so much perhaps.

And for some people its enough to get the computer to give you the perfect blip every time you grab a pedal like all the other car do, but to me it sounds way better when I do it.

I could have easily stretched this into 15 posts. Damn, focus, must focus.

Mike in CA

The fire jokes are funny but it's going to turn out that bolts that were a bit too short from the supplier or something similar is the cause of the rolling BBQ issue ; not the inability of the car to endure a track environment.

Personally, I wouldn't choose any $150K car as my main track car. It's a simple financial calculation from my POV. But for those who are willing to spend the money to use it primarily for that purpose, my prediction is the 991 GT3 will prove to be just a reliable and capable as the previous version. I guess we'll see.

The GTR comparison keeps coming up but has been pretty well quashed by everyone who has driven the GT3; preconceptions can die hard.

I get that Porsche has pissed off you and others by taking the direction they did with this car. Fair enough. It may just be that the 991 GT3/RS isn't the car for you and you may not have a chance to prove that to yourself definitively one way or the other before you decide whether to write a check. Understandable, but also unfortunate, because I bet you might actually like it if you spent some time with it....

juicersr

Yes. An excellent alternative for those turned off by Porsche's arrogant lack of at least a manual option on the GT3 (yes, i have driven the 997 and 991 PDKs) and/or repulsed by the uninspired 'one size fits all' Cayenne/Panamera style interior that i personally find quite soulless on a range topping $100k ++ sports car. Go for a test drive before it gets snapped up.

I have always been an old-school air-cooled nut and being in the market for a new car was stoked about a stick 991 GT3. However, I feel right at home in this car even after a several days spent in one of the D-Zug hotrods - the performance is staggering. I can even see the engine and check the oil with a dipstick.

Udo, glad there are still guys like you questioning all the BS. You at least gotta come down in April when the K3 should be done. Still waiting for final word on Pikes.

TRAKCAR

^^^ beautiful and tempting!
But I would not trust the the car or lambo support availability to take it to a track like Sebring. Admittedly most of the issues I've seen on track with Italian car s are transmission related...

This is also interesting; http://www.teambgb.com/for_build.asp
But this makes me drewel.

Hoopumpers

After watching this 997 RS to 4.0 conversion vid, I don't think the "991 revs too quickly" argument is so compelling. Sounds like a freakin motorbike...

911dev

^^^ that's nice!!!

no fires and/or engines becoming dislodged either...