Stop Sale?
04-24-2014, 12:30 PM
#4366
Rennlist Member
PAG has been hiding behind PCNA, PCGB and other regional Porsche org. and letting them take the heat regarding PAG decisions.The group letter forces PAG out of hiding and they now must take the front line in defending their actions. If anything it will open communications and make them more transparent.
Regarding the rich spoiled kids argument, though valid there is another side to it. Most people not able to afford expensive cars can relate and sympathize with anyone who spends a lot of money on a car or anything else for the matter and find they cannot use it. It is like buying a house regardless of price and finding you cannot live in it and are not told when you can live in it. Most if not all people would find this unacceptable.
Regarding the rich spoiled kids argument, though valid there is another side to it. Most people not able to afford expensive cars can relate and sympathize with anyone who spends a lot of money on a car or anything else for the matter and find they cannot use it. It is like buying a house regardless of price and finding you cannot live in it and are not told when you can live in it. Most if not all people would find this unacceptable.
04-24-2014, 12:32 PM
#4367
PAG has been hiding behind PCNA, PCGB and other regional Porsche org. and letting them take the heat regarding PAG decisions.The group letter forces PAG out of hiding and they now must take the front line in defending their actions. If anything it will open communications and make them more transparent. Regarding the rich spoiled kids argument, though valid there is another side to it. Most people not able to afford expensive cars can relate and sympathize with anyone who spends a lot of money on a car or anything else for the matter and find they cannot use it. It is like buying a house regardless of price and finding you cannot live in it and are not told when you can live in it. Most if not all people would find this unacceptable.
And Jalopnik touched upon that argument, thereby diffusing it and focusing on the real issue, which is the dramatic discrepancy.
04-24-2014, 01:23 PM
#4368
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Hi renni's
I'm still in just by the skin of my teeth. Congrats guys on creating the group. Great idea Manifold I couldn't disagree with you more about how The Group looks like a bunch of Spoilt brats who don't have their toys to the general community. PAG could care little about the general car buying community. Their customers are high socio economic status. There are just not that many of us out there. We are also a fairly influential group. The damage this can and has done to the brand is immeasurable. The fact that the media has picked up on it is even more serious for Porsche.
Just look at the sales for the VW golf. They have dropped by 50% in Australia through the handling of the DSG issue and if you own one them good luck selling it.
The GT3 is the hero car for Porsche but the general public just think it's a Porsche. This sort of thing will flow over into the sales of the more basic cars make no mistake. The only way to halt the rot is to appease customers who are affected and shower them so much love that if anyone asks us what happened we can only say they are an amazing company who looked after everyone.
Advocates of a brand are hard to find and can make or break a brand. Everyone I know many of them could be future Porsche owners have asked me am I still going to get that Porsche that catches fire. They all know how excited I am about the car. So imagine what they would think if I say no I have cancelled the order because of the way Porsche has handled the recall. Then imagine they read something in the media which confirms what I have said! Then they would say oh I was considering buying one but I think ill buy a merc instead or a BMW.
Now imagine if I said no problem they have been amazing. They've made sure I am not disadvantaged at all by their mistake and I am going ahead with the order because they have so much integrity and it's a pleasure to buy from a company that appreciates it's customers and you can buy with absolute confidence.
It's a bit different isn't it. Believe me bad news travels fast. Yes they will take head of the group and they would be blind motherless stupid not to react positively to the requests. They are not over the top and I feel they are fair. God if I owned PAG and had a bunch of customers like you guys I'd give you the bloody car. I reckon I'd get better value form you guys than spending millions of dollars on advertising. Oh yeh I'm also a big fan of advertising. You guys are absolute gold to a brand. I simply can not believe you've had to go to such lengths to be treated fairly and equitably.
I reckon they will help and everyone will be happy GT3 owners again.
I'm still in just by the skin of my teeth. Congrats guys on creating the group. Great idea Manifold I couldn't disagree with you more about how The Group looks like a bunch of Spoilt brats who don't have their toys to the general community. PAG could care little about the general car buying community. Their customers are high socio economic status. There are just not that many of us out there. We are also a fairly influential group. The damage this can and has done to the brand is immeasurable. The fact that the media has picked up on it is even more serious for Porsche.
Just look at the sales for the VW golf. They have dropped by 50% in Australia through the handling of the DSG issue and if you own one them good luck selling it.
The GT3 is the hero car for Porsche but the general public just think it's a Porsche. This sort of thing will flow over into the sales of the more basic cars make no mistake. The only way to halt the rot is to appease customers who are affected and shower them so much love that if anyone asks us what happened we can only say they are an amazing company who looked after everyone.
Advocates of a brand are hard to find and can make or break a brand. Everyone I know many of them could be future Porsche owners have asked me am I still going to get that Porsche that catches fire. They all know how excited I am about the car. So imagine what they would think if I say no I have cancelled the order because of the way Porsche has handled the recall. Then imagine they read something in the media which confirms what I have said! Then they would say oh I was considering buying one but I think ill buy a merc instead or a BMW.
Now imagine if I said no problem they have been amazing. They've made sure I am not disadvantaged at all by their mistake and I am going ahead with the order because they have so much integrity and it's a pleasure to buy from a company that appreciates it's customers and you can buy with absolute confidence.
It's a bit different isn't it. Believe me bad news travels fast. Yes they will take head of the group and they would be blind motherless stupid not to react positively to the requests. They are not over the top and I feel they are fair. God if I owned PAG and had a bunch of customers like you guys I'd give you the bloody car. I reckon I'd get better value form you guys than spending millions of dollars on advertising. Oh yeh I'm also a big fan of advertising. You guys are absolute gold to a brand. I simply can not believe you've had to go to such lengths to be treated fairly and equitably.
I reckon they will help and everyone will be happy GT3 owners again.
04-24-2014, 01:33 PM
#4369
[/QUOTE]
Advocates of a brand are hard to find and can make or break a brand. Everyone I know many of them could be future Porsche owners have asked me am I still going to get that Porsche that catches fire. They all know how excited I am about the car. So imagine what they would think if I say no I have cancelled the order because of the way Porsche has handled the recall. Then imagine they read something in the media which confirms what I have said! Then they would say oh I was considering buying one but I think ill buy a merc instead or a BMW.
Now imagine if I said no problem they have been amazing. They've made sure I am not disadvantaged at all by their mistake and I am going ahead with the order because they have so much integrity and it's a pleasure to buy from a company that appreciates it's customers and you can buy with absolute confidence.
[/QUOTE]
Well put. I hear questions daily from friends and coworkers. My response now... "I'm not buying it anymore, got my deposit and walked".
Advocates of a brand are hard to find and can make or break a brand. Everyone I know many of them could be future Porsche owners have asked me am I still going to get that Porsche that catches fire. They all know how excited I am about the car. So imagine what they would think if I say no I have cancelled the order because of the way Porsche has handled the recall. Then imagine they read something in the media which confirms what I have said! Then they would say oh I was considering buying one but I think ill buy a merc instead or a BMW.
Now imagine if I said no problem they have been amazing. They've made sure I am not disadvantaged at all by their mistake and I am going ahead with the order because they have so much integrity and it's a pleasure to buy from a company that appreciates it's customers and you can buy with absolute confidence.
[/QUOTE]
Well put. I hear questions daily from friends and coworkers. My response now... "I'm not buying it anymore, got my deposit and walked".
04-24-2014, 02:31 PM
#4370
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The way I see it, Porsche has no serious competition in their price range, so the power is in their hands. Over time, I've grown more inclined to get a 991 GT3 if/when I can get my hands on one, and this situation hasn't deterred me one bit. I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. I wish Porsche had serious competition, but they just don't.
IMO, biggest risk for Porsche right now is to return the car without fixing it properly, so I can appreciate that this is taking a while with no definite timeline.
As far as different compensation in different markets, so what? It's capitalism. Who says Porsche has to deal with each market the same way? Heck, two people can walk into a dealer the same day and get a different price on the same car based on their relationship with the dealer, negotiating ability, etc. Is that 'unfair', or just the way things work?
IMO, biggest risk for Porsche right now is to return the car without fixing it properly, so I can appreciate that this is taking a while with no definite timeline.
As far as different compensation in different markets, so what? It's capitalism. Who says Porsche has to deal with each market the same way? Heck, two people can walk into a dealer the same day and get a different price on the same car based on their relationship with the dealer, negotiating ability, etc. Is that 'unfair', or just the way things work?
04-24-2014, 02:41 PM
#4371
Drifting
I agree with Manifold.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
04-24-2014, 02:41 PM
#4372
Race Director
As far as different compensation in different markets, so what? It's capitalism. Who says Porsche has to deal with each market the same way? Heck, two people can walk into a dealer the same day and get a different price on the same car based on their relationship with the dealer, negotiating ability, etc. Is that 'unfair', or just the way things work?
Porsche have a "right" to offer compensation differently in different markets if they feel it's in their best interest. OTOH, customers have a right to complain if they feel they are being treated unfairly and to suggest to Porsche that, given the bad will being created, maybe treating different customers differently with regard to compensation isn't really in their best interest after all. The Action Group is simply exercising that right, as far as I can see.
04-24-2014, 03:00 PM
#4373
Burning Brakes
I agree with Manifold.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
04-24-2014, 03:08 PM
#4374
Drifting
They AREN'T offering a 2015 if you pass on your 2014. You are on your own and at the back of the line. For most it is the 2014 or nothing. And the compensation is not proportional to what was paid, okay? It is highly and illogically variable. Further, I sold 2 cars in expectation of a quoted arrival time, and am now driving my son's tricycle for kicks.
Well they should offer 2015. Priority too!
It only helps Porsche as they get higher ROI as higher production will drive down cost… but not so good for owners
Compensation should be proportional to MARKETS where MSRP of car is paid - yes. Very logical. Illogical if you are emotional-or an owner with greed. Sorry for the bicycle- hopefully it is a nice bicycle. Think of it being good for your health.
04-24-2014, 03:13 PM
#4375
Finally, I wish Macca, Captain Mojo & the gt3 Action Group success!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
04-24-2014, 03:19 PM
#4376
Burning Brakes
Well they should offer 2015. Priority too!
It only helps Porsche as they get higher ROI as higher production will drive down cost… but not so good for owners
Compensation should be proportional to MARKETS where MSRP of car is paid - yes. Very logical. Illogical if you are emotional-or an owner with greed. Sorry for the bicycle- hopefully it is a nice bicycle. Think of it being good for your health.
It only helps Porsche as they get higher ROI as higher production will drive down cost… but not so good for owners
Compensation should be proportional to MARKETS where MSRP of car is paid - yes. Very logical. Illogical if you are emotional-or an owner with greed. Sorry for the bicycle- hopefully it is a nice bicycle. Think of it being good for your health.
04-24-2014, 03:19 PM
#4377
Race Director
I agree with Manifold.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
Different markets. Buyers paid different prices in different markets as well. Or are GT3 Group Advocates going to start paying the net difference a buyer paid say in Australia / China were a GT3 can cost 400- 500k vs. what was paid in the states 150k.
With US getting less-- well makes sense- they do pay less then everyone else. With GB not getting any- now that is the only WTF for me.
Other then that IMO it is fair.
IMO also-- this anger building up comes from deeper routes then just compensation differences. 2014 owners are now starting to realize the issue is actually bigger then they first thought it was. They are in panic mode. If they go down, they want to take down Porsche with them.
P.S.S. It is also my opinion that if Porsche is offering a full buyback price + 2015 allocation at 2014 price- that is more then fair for both parties. Unless you have traded a car at a Porsche dealer for the GT3 that you now have - and you are SOL- then they need to put you on a Porsche until your 2015 arrives.
Respectfully, from my point of view as a 2014 owner, the panic hypothesis is silly. First, the option is on the table to sell back the car at full value (although I have no intention of doing so) so there's no reason to panic. I'm not even concerned by how long this is taking and don't think it means that the "issue is really bigger than first thought". I want Porsche to take as much time as is necessary to make sure the connecting rod issue is behind them and a robust fix is in place. I'd be more concerned if they were cranking out a fix in a couple of weeks. Once I get my new engine, I'll have another 4 1/2+ years of warranty to back it up. No reason to panic there either.
That doesn't mean that I think Porsche is handling this fairly across the board [they aren't) or that they couldn't be much more forthcoming with timely information (they could). Replacing the engines instead of rebuilding them was a very good move, but other aspects of this have been handled poorly. Also, this episode has challenged my feelings about Porsche and affected the possibility that I might do business with them again in the future. They need to know that.
I have no desire to bring Porsche down, and no one in the Action Group has expressed that desire either. As was stated in the letter to PAG (you should read it if you haven't already) we are some of Porsche's best customers and we don't think what's happening reflects very well on the brand whose cars we want to drive. Panic has nothing to do with it.
04-24-2014, 04:25 PM
#4378
Track Day
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Much of the difference in prices from country to country is in the form of taxes and duties so that has to be figured into the equation.
Respectfully, from my point of view as a 2014 owner, the panic hypothesis is silly. First, the option is on the table to sell back the car at full value (although I have no intention of doing so) so there's no reason to panic. I'm not even concerned by how long this is taking and don't think it means that the "issue is really bigger than first thought". I want Porsche to take as much time as is necessary to make sure the connecting rod issue is behind them and a robust fix is in place. I'd be more concerned if they were cranking out a fix in a couple of weeks. Once I get my new engine, I'll have another 4 1/2+ years of warranty to back it up. No reason to panic there either.
That doesn't mean that I think Porsche is handling this fairly across the board [they aren't) or that they couldn't be much more forthcoming with timely information (they could). Replacing the engines instead of rebuilding them was a very good move, but other aspects of this have been handled poorly. Also, this episode has challenged my feelings about Porsche and affected the possibility that I might do business with them again in the future. They need to know that.
I have no desire to bring Porsche down, and no one in the Action Group has expressed that desire either. As was stated in the letter to PAG (you should read it if you haven't already) we are some of Porsche's best customers and we don't think what's happening reflects very well on the brand whose cars we want to drive. Panic has nothing to do with it.
Respectfully, from my point of view as a 2014 owner, the panic hypothesis is silly. First, the option is on the table to sell back the car at full value (although I have no intention of doing so) so there's no reason to panic. I'm not even concerned by how long this is taking and don't think it means that the "issue is really bigger than first thought". I want Porsche to take as much time as is necessary to make sure the connecting rod issue is behind them and a robust fix is in place. I'd be more concerned if they were cranking out a fix in a couple of weeks. Once I get my new engine, I'll have another 4 1/2+ years of warranty to back it up. No reason to panic there either.
That doesn't mean that I think Porsche is handling this fairly across the board [they aren't) or that they couldn't be much more forthcoming with timely information (they could). Replacing the engines instead of rebuilding them was a very good move, but other aspects of this have been handled poorly. Also, this episode has challenged my feelings about Porsche and affected the possibility that I might do business with them again in the future. They need to know that.
I have no desire to bring Porsche down, and no one in the Action Group has expressed that desire either. As was stated in the letter to PAG (you should read it if you haven't already) we are some of Porsche's best customers and we don't think what's happening reflects very well on the brand whose cars we want to drive. Panic has nothing to do with it.
well said
04-24-2014, 04:30 PM
#4379
I stand corrected, Eduardo!
On a completely different note, I think the compensation should indeed be the same everywhere, because people in different countries have been experiencing the same mess. The fact that the price they paid for the cars varies has nothing to do with Porsche, since their production cost are the identical, but with government duties and taxes. Something that the clients nor Porsche can control...
My 2 cents only...
On a completely different note, I think the compensation should indeed be the same everywhere, because people in different countries have been experiencing the same mess. The fact that the price they paid for the cars varies has nothing to do with Porsche, since their production cost are the identical, but with government duties and taxes. Something that the clients nor Porsche can control...
My 2 cents only...
04-24-2014, 05:51 PM
#4380
Drifting
I stand corrected, Eduardo!
On a completely different note, I think the compensation should indeed be the same everywhere, because people in different countries have been experiencing the same mess. The fact that the price they paid for the cars varies has nothing to do with Porsche, since their production cost are the identical, but with government duties and taxes. Something that the clients nor Porsche can control...
My 2 cents only...
On a completely different note, I think the compensation should indeed be the same everywhere, because people in different countries have been experiencing the same mess. The fact that the price they paid for the cars varies has nothing to do with Porsche, since their production cost are the identical, but with government duties and taxes. Something that the clients nor Porsche can control...
My 2 cents only...
Now lets reverse scenario, your face/nominal/real value is still higher but my compensation is now brought up to $4,000 to match yours- how do you feel ?
I'm just wondering.
As for Mike in CA-- on some of your other post-- regarding the situation it appears you are losing your cool slowly Mike…
p.s. i don't want to throw in more variables yet- like taxation which are also higher in other countries vs. US… trying to keep a simple formula-- but if we want to include everything in 1 formula - we realize that is very complex and not that simple.