Existence of a patent and who manufactures are two separate issues. As far as design is concerned, Design Patents are generally weak and barely worth the paper they are printed on b/c they only cover aesthetic features, and only novel aesthetic features. Utility patents have value, but in highly patented art areas (automotive seats are highly patented), utility patents are generally drawn to very specific innovations. . . like a new pivot structure for example.

In short, the existence of a patent owned by Porsche on a seat doesn't tell much about who is doing the R&D behind the seat to meet regs.

Here's a recent porsche seat covered by a design patent.

 

So you have this based on some inside information or just based on your observation? I'm all ears.

Here's what I see: (i) AP has clearly left the manual on the table as a possibility, (ii) the manual fans seem to be screaming loudly online, (iii) and if the manual fans act in accordance with their voices and prove there's a market niche for the manual, it will come. But I would bet *only* in the .2 GT3 cars.

But Porsche coming forward with a PDK only GT3 is, in retrospect, expected. The jump to the PDK must come with conviction, and this is what PAG has done.

 

We are at a different point and time re: sport bucket seats.

A) The .2 997 gt3 in MY2010 got the 'sport bucket seat' as standard & no charge. The .2 997 gt3 RS (MY2010/2011) provided other 'improvements' besides the 'sport bucket seat' which made them a very desirable model (as you well know). This will be equally the case with the .1 991 gt3 vs the .1 991 gt3 RS! They will give the 991 gt3 RS quite a bit of extra performance & lighter weight! They don't need to hold back the 'sport bucket seat' to differentiate that model from the base 991 gt3!

B) Whatever changes in US regulations re: sport bucket seats for MY2013 or MY2014, Porsche and PCNA must have known about these modifications required well in advance! PCNA did not offered a 'sport bucket seat' on the 991 when it arrived in the US as a late MY2012 model! That is the same model year as my Spyder, which was supplied by Porsche in the US with a gt2 type sport bucket seats! So PCNA did not seem interested in supplying the gt2 seats on the new models from day one! Furthermore, PCNA & Porsche has had several years to make adjustments/modifications to the existing 'gt2-type' bucket seat to comply with whatever are the new US requirements...had they wanted to! Yet PCNA, after the Geneva 2013 intro, announced that gt2 sport bucket seats would not be offered in the US on their MY2014 gt3. At that time, the actual start of gt3 production for the US market was nearly 10 months away! Many of us believe that PCNA had plenty of time to modify the existing gt2-type bucket seat to get certification for their 991 & 981 models IF THEY WOULD HAVE WANTED TO HOMOLOGATE THEM! We don't know the whole story. Did US dealers ask PCNA not to allow them to be offered because they consider them a 'hard sell'? Did PCNA bungle the sport bucket seat U.S. certification due to incompetence or failing to adhere to the required deadlines? We don't know. And we will not know until someone with 'inside knowledge' decides to spill the beans. Let's just say that not providing a gt2 type sport bucket seat on the 991 gt3 ONLY in the US market for that highly 'sporting' model is highly suspicious...and very disappointing to many potential gt3 customers!

C)Over-the-Counter sport seat sales are not going to be a profitable venture for Porsche this time around. The existing 997 /987 gt2 type sport bucket seat DOES NOT PLUG correctly into any US 991 or 981 model! The airbags and the passenger occupancy seat sensors might not work correctly. And Suncoast believes that the European gt2 type seat currently sold for European/ROW 991/981 will ALSO NOT PLUG correctly into any US 991/981. That will also apply to the 991 gt3 when it arrives later this year! So there is no possibility that this is just a ruse, or trick, to get them to sell more gt2 seats over the part counters of American Porsche dealers to increase their profit margins! If they don't plug in correctly, and there is no guarantee that the airbags and occupancy seat sensor will work correctly, the liability is too great for anyone to change their regular sport + seats into gt2 type buckets...unless you have a dedicated track car and never drive on public roads!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Colorado

 

Hi Eduardo,

We discussed this issue of the seats already extensively..and not much new can be said. I dont want to add anything anymore either here..but just to complete your point B:

The bucket seats are available in Europe for the 991 GT3 - but as I mentioned already before - they are not FIA homologated. So yes you can use them for a trackday, but any organised event with the FIA behind will not allow the 991 GT3 to participate. So in the end there isnt a big difference - or?

US customers dont get the seats..EU customers get the seat but cant use it much either. No matter where one is located - I agree nonetheless to the title of the thread .."major fail"...

all the best,

 

What FIA events are you referring to? The new GT3, like all of them before it, are street cars.

Just trying to make sure I understand your point.

 

yes its a street car but so far all Porsche were allowed to participate to the Porsche Sports Cup Germany-Europe. The 991 GT3 will not be allowedd to participate..so far..

http://www.porsche.com/porschesportscup-germany/en/

If you look at the german configurator..the you will see the small Note "Not FIA approved"..

 

I believe, Porsche chose to ignore the North American market on the seats, at least for the time being. If it was a gov't issue, they probably would have know well in advance to make the necessary alterations to the seat for compliance in the US. The fact that the 2012 991 never offered the seats and it has been nearly years since that car has been released affirms my point. As for a new GT2 style seat, if it arrives in the US, I think the earliest we will see it will be on the RS.

 

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Oh, I think there is a big 'différence', if you pardon my French. Most 991 gt3 owners in Europe, America & ROW would like to think they can sign up for a local DE in their region and have recreational use of their gt3 at the track (not racing). The European/ROW 991 gt3 customer will be able to enjoy the gt2 type bucket as a more comfortable & effective seat for the track use...plus the ability to use 6 point harnesses! The American customer would not have that choice on his 991 gt3!

I am not based in Europe. Are you? If so, please tell me if the vast majority of normal track DE days in Europe for a typical Porsche customer there are FIA events only! I would have thought most recreational use of a Porsche on a track (not racing) by Europeans is NOT typically at a FIA sanctioned event!

We never got here the fixed sport buckets (without airbags) & roll cage that were standard on the 'Sport Club' package in Europe. Was that what made the 996 & 997 Europe/ROW gt3's eligible for FIA competition before? If that is so, our US gt3's and gt3 RS were never eligible (as sold by PCNA & US P dealers to a customer) for FIA competition! You might be upset that the gt2 type folding bucket seat w. airbags, which is the only bucket offered on the Europe/ROW 991 gt3, is not eligible for FIA events in Europe. That is fine. But nevertheless, I bet you would rather be in your gt2 type sport buckets at a track event anywhere in the world on your 991 gt3 than in one of our sport plus seats, if truth be told! That is the difference.

Saludos,
Eduardo

PS. I know we have covered this subject many times...but some keep bringing up arguments which required a response.

 

Why did AP state in a recent interview that Porsche will consider sport bucket seats for the GT3 in the US because of the great interest but need to deal with homologation issues? Obviously they are aware of the demand and intimated they were working on it.

 

Thanks for that! We can debate assumptions all you want...at least until my operation on Wednesday!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Colorado

 

Eduardo, I posted my thoughts about the assumptions being made surrounding this issue as a reflex, and then decided there was no point in covering the same subject again so I deleted it (apparently not quickly enough ). A rare attempt at restraint on my part!

I hope everything goes perfectly with your operation on Wednesday!

Best,

 

Your point is still lost on me.

The Gt3 is a street car. Always was. Yet you say the euros get the car 'but can't use it much '. What are you saying, can't got to the north loop, spa, hockenheim? That would suck b/c I was planning on euro delivery

Or are you just being melodramatic?

 

Thank you Mike. I hope so too!

No restraint necessary. Everyone is entitled to his opinion...since we really don't know the actual facts with any certainty. I can believe a number of scenarios. Failure to giver proper notice on the part of US government regulators. Maybe, although we have no proof of this. Failure on the part of Porsche to deal with the seat regulations in time to comply with the certification for the US 991 gt3. Maybe, although we have no proof of this either. Or is it a willingness on PCNA's part to use the change in regulations to justify not offering the sport seats in the US on MY2014 due to either dealer protests or because they wanted to make sure the improvements on the 991 gt3 are bullet-proof in this openly litigious society (e.g. possible CL catastrophic failure) where tort laws are notoriously tough? Don't know either - but it's all possible! Take your pick among these & other possible scenarios. But all of these 'assumptions' are equally valid until known facts prove them wrong! We are still navigating in the dark, friends!

Saludos,
Eduardo

PS I am subscribed to this thread. That is why I had an email copy of the post you deleted!

 

Focus groups and lawyers building cars now. But aren't the Mk.II versions of the 911's always better? Sounds like Porsche is suffering from a lack of Porsche Purists in its ranks - getting outvoted by Marketing.