991.2 Gt3 to 718 Clubsport
12-29-2019, 01:48 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
This thread is epic for noobs jumping into a race car or contemplating one - thank you all!
I'm terms of slicks manufacturers, Michelin for racing a good choice clearly, but for DE, should we consider other brands that perhaps compensate performance a bit but are better with heat cycles?
And learning about air jacks, brake balance, setting up a video data telemetry system to work with the installed Cosworth data logger system, buying a fire suit, it's all a big step ....
Any others that have gone through this learning curve into a clubsport pls share some learning lessons too.
I'm terms of slicks manufacturers, Michelin for racing a good choice clearly, but for DE, should we consider other brands that perhaps compensate performance a bit but are better with heat cycles?
And learning about air jacks, brake balance, setting up a video data telemetry system to work with the installed Cosworth data logger system, buying a fire suit, it's all a big step ....
Any others that have gone through this learning curve into a clubsport pls share some learning lessons too.
12-29-2019, 09:02 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
Great question on tires, I'd look mostly at cost and longevity at this point. But if it helps, here's what I've learned from a good amount of seat time in each of the following::
1. Hankook F200. Spec tire for VLN class GT4 and TCRs at some point and all Creventic events. Very solid performer for its low price (around EUR1,400). Most common compound is the C53 (hard) which will outlast others in this list. Peak performance is 0.5 sec slower than Michelins in my own back-to-back testing in tropical weather. This tire rewards a slow temperature build (i.e. you don't have ace the warmup game every time before the tire starts going off-peak), so in that sense it's friendliest to a beginner.
2. Michelin S9. OEM tire as everyone knows. Two choice of compounds: L (hard) is the benchmark when you compare laptimes with PMNA data sources; M (medium) is sometimes available but not recommended. Softer sidewalls vs. Hankook and more susceptible to cold damage. Both compounds tend to peak early, will feel like magic for 2-3 laps, but requires experience to create temps in time for that peak. Longevity slightly below that of the Hankook. I'd run the S9L all day long if cost is not a concern (around EUR 1,800). [Note: S9 is the right tire for the Cayman; N2 is specific to Carrera Cup and actually an inferior carcass by certain metrics]
3. Pirelli D. Love-hate relationship with this one. Spec tire for all Blancpain events and probably the fastest with good engineering support. Softest sidewall of the lot, which creates a lot of "movement" underneath the driver. H (hard) compound has a very narrow peak window, and is probably the most temperature sensitive of all the tires here. It's a great tire make no mistake, but the cost-benefit is a tough sell for beginners.
I've only had a couple hours on Yokos back in my 997 Cup days, not enough to offer value input there.
1. Hankook F200. Spec tire for VLN class GT4 and TCRs at some point and all Creventic events. Very solid performer for its low price (around EUR1,400). Most common compound is the C53 (hard) which will outlast others in this list. Peak performance is 0.5 sec slower than Michelins in my own back-to-back testing in tropical weather. This tire rewards a slow temperature build (i.e. you don't have ace the warmup game every time before the tire starts going off-peak), so in that sense it's friendliest to a beginner.
2. Michelin S9. OEM tire as everyone knows. Two choice of compounds: L (hard) is the benchmark when you compare laptimes with PMNA data sources; M (medium) is sometimes available but not recommended. Softer sidewalls vs. Hankook and more susceptible to cold damage. Both compounds tend to peak early, will feel like magic for 2-3 laps, but requires experience to create temps in time for that peak. Longevity slightly below that of the Hankook. I'd run the S9L all day long if cost is not a concern (around EUR 1,800). [Note: S9 is the right tire for the Cayman; N2 is specific to Carrera Cup and actually an inferior carcass by certain metrics]
3. Pirelli D. Love-hate relationship with this one. Spec tire for all Blancpain events and probably the fastest with good engineering support. Softest sidewall of the lot, which creates a lot of "movement" underneath the driver. H (hard) compound has a very narrow peak window, and is probably the most temperature sensitive of all the tires here. It's a great tire make no mistake, but the cost-benefit is a tough sell for beginners.
I've only had a couple hours on Yokos back in my 997 Cup days, not enough to offer value input there.
12-29-2019, 10:50 AM
#63
I'm not the best to talk about GT3 Cup as I only tried it for one session and don't own one. It felt much more "serious" than the 718 CS.. like, it would take a long time to even get close to its limit to be able to discuss it. It's intimidating for me as are the running costs!! Others may chime in with real knowledge
12-29-2019, 02:03 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Great question on tires, I'd look mostly at cost and longevity at this point. But if it helps, here's what I've learned from a good amount of seat time in each of the following::
1. Hankook F200. Spec tire for VLN class GT4 and TCRs at some point and all Creventic events. Very solid performer for its low price (around EUR1,400). Most common compound is the C53 (hard) which will outlast others in this list. Peak performance is 0.5 sec slower than Michelins in my own back-to-back testing in tropical weather. This tire rewards a slow temperature build (i.e. you don't have ace the warmup game every time before the tire starts going off-peak), so in that sense it's friendliest to a beginner.
2. Michelin S9. OEM tire as everyone knows. Two choice of compounds: L (hard) is the benchmark when you compare laptimes with PMNA data sources; M (medium) is sometimes available but not recommended. Softer sidewalls vs. Hankook and more susceptible to cold damage. Both compounds tend to peak early, will feel like magic for 2-3 laps, but requires experience to create temps in time for that peak. Longevity slightly below that of the Hankook. I'd run the S9L all day long if cost is not a concern (around EUR 1,800). [Note: S9 is the right tire for the Cayman; N2 is specific to Carrera Cup and actually an inferior carcass by certain metrics]
3. Pirelli D. Love-hate relationship with this one. Spec tire for all Blancpain events and probably the fastest with good engineering support. Softest sidewall of the lot, which creates a lot of "movement" underneath the driver. H (hard) compound has a very narrow peak window, and is probably the most temperature sensitive of all the tires here. It's a great tire make no mistake, but the cost-benefit is a tough sell for beginners.
I've only had a couple hours on Yokos back in my 997 Cup days, not enough to offer value input there.
1. Hankook F200. Spec tire for VLN class GT4 and TCRs at some point and all Creventic events. Very solid performer for its low price (around EUR1,400). Most common compound is the C53 (hard) which will outlast others in this list. Peak performance is 0.5 sec slower than Michelins in my own back-to-back testing in tropical weather. This tire rewards a slow temperature build (i.e. you don't have ace the warmup game every time before the tire starts going off-peak), so in that sense it's friendliest to a beginner.
2. Michelin S9. OEM tire as everyone knows. Two choice of compounds: L (hard) is the benchmark when you compare laptimes with PMNA data sources; M (medium) is sometimes available but not recommended. Softer sidewalls vs. Hankook and more susceptible to cold damage. Both compounds tend to peak early, will feel like magic for 2-3 laps, but requires experience to create temps in time for that peak. Longevity slightly below that of the Hankook. I'd run the S9L all day long if cost is not a concern (around EUR 1,800). [Note: S9 is the right tire for the Cayman; N2 is specific to Carrera Cup and actually an inferior carcass by certain metrics]
3. Pirelli D. Love-hate relationship with this one. Spec tire for all Blancpain events and probably the fastest with good engineering support. Softest sidewall of the lot, which creates a lot of "movement" underneath the driver. H (hard) compound has a very narrow peak window, and is probably the most temperature sensitive of all the tires here. It's a great tire make no mistake, but the cost-benefit is a tough sell for beginners.
I've only had a couple hours on Yokos back in my 997 Cup days, not enough to offer value input there.
12-29-2019, 02:03 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
clubsport hands down. id even look at the 981. unless you are the type that needs the latest and greatest... save on initial purchase.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
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CRex (12-30-2019)
12-29-2019, 02:13 PM
#66
Originally Posted by zmon
clubsport hands down. id even look at the 981. unless you are the type that needs the latest and greatest... save on initial purchase.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
I bought new because I wanted piece of mind knowing car was pristine - for me that was worth the extra $ as my risk tolerance is very low - would have hated to buy a used car "as is" with no warranty and finding out something was out of sorts or frame is bent especially when pushing car or myself at the limit.
As for speed factor, why does it need to be stupid? Power is intoxicating and fun, and what's wrong with more if the car set-up can handle it and can add minimum speed around turns?
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phefner (12-29-2019)
12-29-2019, 03:45 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
FWIW, I've taken a 981 CS out for a session. The car as a package was great but coming from a 997.2 GT3 I found the engine lackluster.
12-29-2019, 03:54 PM
#69
Danny at Hankook recommended to me the 250/640R18 and 300/680R18. To be honest the 300 looks like it might be tight. Have not mounted a set yet, I still have transport tires on and my spares package hasn't arrived. The 280/680R18 looks like a closer fit to the Michelin 27/68-18 that Porsche recommends. I've seen Pirelli DH in 305 on some cars so maybe won't be an issue.
12-29-2019, 06:33 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
clubsport hands down. id even look at the 981. unless you are the type that needs the latest and greatest... save on initial purchase.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
i found a CS MR out of the UK a few years ago instead of a street car on track and like Arya said, i have no need to track a street car again. another reason i got a touring GT3 and it will not see the track.
the Full safety of the race car, the dual master brake setup, etc etc make this car so much more fun than a street car.
to address the "speed factor" which is stupid in my opinion but if your the type that has to be DE champion you should still be able to do this in the CS, but if you cant, plenum, headers and a tune are not very hard. also you will want to put headers on if you are not club racing anyways to save the factory cats.
also look for an MR car that has the 100l fuel tank. most of the CS in the US only have the 70l tank.
and again my comments are about the 981. cause not sure why you would shop the 718 unless you were taking it out in IMSA or PWC or you just have the funds to win the dick swinging contest.
12-29-2019, 07:33 PM
#71
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Which racing series would GT4 Clubsport be eligible for (and reasonably competitive?) I've seen some in Porsche club races, but usually it's just 2-3 of them racing each other among gt3 cups or spec boxsters, which is probably not as much fun. I think one of attractions of having such a car would be ability to race it.
12-29-2019, 07:54 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by limitedslip
FWIW, I've taken a 981 CS out for a session. The car as a package was great but coming from a 997.2 GT3 I found the engine lackluster.
12-29-2019, 10:49 PM
#73
In national Porsche club racing on primarily shorter tracks we have found the 981cs to be the same speed as 996 cup both on Pirelli slicks. 996 is faster out of corners due to better rear biased traction and quicker off standing start so its hard for cs to pass. This is non MR. MR is lighter and a bit quicker. In DE trackdays both 996 cup and 981cs on slicks are going to be faster than all but pro driven 991rs. note shorter track qualification above.
On the larger tracks, WGI for instance, the 991.2 GT3 on slicks is definitely faster in an experienced drivers hands than the 996 Cups or 981 Clubsport...in a DE environment...Cups and Saucers event for instance where lots of 996's show up.
This is a great thread for learning about the 718 Clubsport and moving to a track car in general. Really enjoy all the insight and comments.
It's much more subjective to say one car is fast than another due to tires, driver, track, etc. In a DE environment its very different than race conditions. A Clubsport (981 or 718) seems like a great choice for anyone looking for a race car without all the extra maintenance of a Cup car...but with the cost of less speed. I've taken rides in a 991.2 Cup and its amazing but you have to have the resources to run one.
12-29-2019, 11:47 PM
#74
[quote=Mr. Turtles]On the larger tracks, WGI for instance, the 991.2 GT3 on slicks is definitely faster in an experienced drivers hands than the 996 Cups or 981 Clubsport.... [quote]
Fake News.
Fake News.
12-30-2019, 12:00 AM
#75
Three Wheelin'
On the larger tracks, WGI for instance, the 991.2 GT3 on slicks is definitely faster in an experienced drivers hands than the 996 Cups or 981 Clubsport...in a DE environment...Cups and Saucers event for instance where lots of 996's show up.
This is a great thread for learning about the 718 Clubsport and moving to a track car in general. Really enjoy all the insight and comments.
It's much more subjective to say one car is fast than another due to tires, driver, track, etc. In a DE environment its very different than race conditions. A Clubsport (981 or 718) seems like a great choice for anyone looking for a race car without all the extra maintenance of a Cup car...but with the cost of less speed. I've taken rides in a 991.2 Cup and its amazing but you have to have the resources to run one.
This is a great thread for learning about the 718 Clubsport and moving to a track car in general. Really enjoy all the insight and comments.
It's much more subjective to say one car is fast than another due to tires, driver, track, etc. In a DE environment its very different than race conditions. A Clubsport (981 or 718) seems like a great choice for anyone looking for a race car without all the extra maintenance of a Cup car...but with the cost of less speed. I've taken rides in a 991.2 Cup and its amazing but you have to have the resources to run one.