991.2 Gt3 to 718 Clubsport
12-28-2019, 04:53 PM
#46
I think if I ever get a dedicated track car, I'd go with pdk. with the .2GT3, no lift shift/rev match, I can keep up with the pdk cars but I want to focus more on the lines than rowing gears. I'm still very green and have years before I'd consider a dedicated track car, but that's my goal someday. I think the cost benefit and fun factor of a gt4cs is more appealing to me.
12-28-2019, 06:06 PM
#47
Race Car
If track fun is what you are after, may I suggest track fun: https://www.radicalsportscars.com/our-cars/sr8
GT3 is great ... but if you are going dedicated track car, why not go all the way ?
GT3 is great ... but if you are going dedicated track car, why not go all the way ?
FWIW - If you're in to DE and have the resources a purpose built race car is far, far better. I have zero regrets about selling my RS for the Radical.
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PierreTT (12-28-2019)
12-28-2019, 06:06 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Good question. Goal is to have a proper racecar that gives me good intro to next level of performance. I will be working with a pro coach to set up the car and improve my driving. Safety is also a consideration as a true factory race car is clearly safer than a street car with a half cage.
Finally lap times are not super important but from my research I think I would be 1.5-3 seconds faster in the 718 at some of the big tracks like VIR than in my Gt3 on Hoosiers. I don’t want something that is so fast that It is not fun at DE’s with a mix of cars (ie 991.2 cup car)
Finally lap times are not super important but from my research I think I would be 1.5-3 seconds faster in the 718 at some of the big tracks like VIR than in my Gt3 on Hoosiers. I don’t want something that is so fast that It is not fun at DE’s with a mix of cars (ie 991.2 cup car)
Like you I started on a street car. But as you progress to within a second or two of pro times in the street car, two kinds of noise start appearing in your mental calculus, namely: (1) "I'm really wrangling the last bit out of this street car, how safe am I without a full cage and *real* bucket seat" and (2) there's no baseline reference for a street car: different tires, mod etc. means you're constantly reacting to hardware variables. I really don't have the mental capacity for multivariable calculus at the track...
Your point about not caring about absolute laptimes at this stage is spot on. Invest in yourself. Hardware comes and goes. Your skills and speed--they stay with you for the rest of your driving career!
12-28-2019, 06:20 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
I mostly use my GT3 on the track. I enjoy the convenience of carplay and a/c to drive to track and the possibility to drive the car to work every now and then. But the more I look at it, the less sense it makes. If the sole purpose of the car is for track days, might as well have a proper dedicated car. Which had gotten me thinking about a cup car for a while.
But I have always felt being too inexperienced to jump straight into one and the whole ordeal that surrounds the cup car is not easy for me to swallow. Some see it as a fun part of the process, working on the car, preparing, and so on. I barely have time to make it to track.
So this thread is terribly enlightening. Think I will put my firesuit on, post my car for sale on RL for what I am willing to give it up for with no rush. Nobody wants it, I keep driving it. Somebody takes it, I am jumping to a CS!
I see that between the CS track day and competition models, the competition has a bigger fuel cell, nicer wheel, adjustable absorbers. I assume that is a better deal between both?
But I have always felt being too inexperienced to jump straight into one and the whole ordeal that surrounds the cup car is not easy for me to swallow. Some see it as a fun part of the process, working on the car, preparing, and so on. I barely have time to make it to track.
So this thread is terribly enlightening. Think I will put my firesuit on, post my car for sale on RL for what I am willing to give it up for with no rush. Nobody wants it, I keep driving it. Somebody takes it, I am jumping to a CS!
I see that between the CS track day and competition models, the competition has a bigger fuel cell, nicer wheel, adjustable absorbers. I assume that is a better deal between both?
12-28-2019, 06:22 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
I wouldn't describe a Radical as "going all the way" vs. a CS. They're just very different options of more or less the same purpose. Both make great alternatives to street cars for DE and have club racing options. I made the jump from a .1RS to a Radical a few years ago. After deciding to move on to a race car my first consideration was a 981CS. I ultimately chose Radical for a variety of reasons.
FWIW - If you're in to DE and have the resources a purpose built race car is far, far better. I have zero regrets about selling my RS for the Radical.
FWIW - If you're in to DE and have the resources a purpose built race car is far, far better. I have zero regrets about selling my RS for the Radical.
Now, I just cant find any good reason to buy another RS ... A slower, less fancy 718Spyder is my next road toy
I dont really enjoy driving a RS on the road at 5/10th anymore...
I really think you've aced the answer to your own question.
Like you I started on a street car. But as you progress to within a second or two of pro times in the street car, two kinds of noise start appearing in your mental calculus, namely: (1) "I'm really wrangling the last bit out of this street car, how safe am I without a full cage and *real* bucket seat" and (2) there's no baseline reference for a street car: different tires, mod etc. means you're constantly reacting to hardware variables. I really don't have the mental capacity for multivariable calculus at the track...
Your point about not caring about absolute laptimes at this stage is spot on. Invest in yourself. Hardware comes and goes. Your skills and speed--they stay with you for the rest of your driving career!
Like you I started on a street car. But as you progress to within a second or two of pro times in the street car, two kinds of noise start appearing in your mental calculus, namely: (1) "I'm really wrangling the last bit out of this street car, how safe am I without a full cage and *real* bucket seat" and (2) there's no baseline reference for a street car: different tires, mod etc. means you're constantly reacting to hardware variables. I really don't have the mental capacity for multivariable calculus at the track...
Your point about not caring about absolute laptimes at this stage is spot on. Invest in yourself. Hardware comes and goes. Your skills and speed--they stay with you for the rest of your driving career!
Safety becomes a real concern when lap times are going down...
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phefner (12-29-2019)
12-28-2019, 06:38 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
Folks might also consider the 981 clubsport as well. I bet value wise that's going to be a good deal and if you want the power it's easy to upgrade the motor to 718cs specs (cam and intake) or higher....
12-28-2019, 06:50 PM
#52
I mostly use my GT3 on the track. I enjoy the convenience of carplay and a/c to drive to track and the possibility to drive the car to work every now and then. But the more I look at it, the less sense it makes. If the sole purpose of the car is for track days, might as well have a proper dedicated car. Which had gotten me thinking about a cup car for a while.
But I have always felt being too inexperienced to jump straight into one and the whole ordeal that surrounds the cup car is not easy for me to swallow. Some see it as a fun part of the process, working on the car, preparing, and so on. I barely have time to make it to track.
So this thread is terribly enlightening. Think I will put my firesuit on, post my car for sale on RL for what I am willing to give it up for with no rush. Nobody wants it, I keep driving it. Somebody takes it, I am jumping to a CS!
I see that between the CS track day and competition models, the competition has a bigger fuel cell, nicer wheel, adjustable absorbers. I assume that is a better deal between both?
But I have always felt being too inexperienced to jump straight into one and the whole ordeal that surrounds the cup car is not easy for me to swallow. Some see it as a fun part of the process, working on the car, preparing, and so on. I barely have time to make it to track.
So this thread is terribly enlightening. Think I will put my firesuit on, post my car for sale on RL for what I am willing to give it up for with no rush. Nobody wants it, I keep driving it. Somebody takes it, I am jumping to a CS!
I see that between the CS track day and competition models, the competition has a bigger fuel cell, nicer wheel, adjustable absorbers. I assume that is a better deal between both?
Another key one is the Track day has a brake booster while the Comp has a balance bar system with adjustable brake bias. When the specs were originally announced the Track day did not have airjacks and had a hand held extinguisher instead of a fire system, but for North America it was changed to include these.
12-28-2019, 07:10 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the feedback. It helps solidify a decision I was already pretty close to making. The safety combined with access to a trackside garage and a good local pro coach helps.
I have decided to get the Clubsport and sell my Gt3 in the spring once the cayman has arrived and is dialed in.
Now my next decision will be which tires to run. I though the Pirelli DH were a good option but it sounds like there have been some tire failures on the 718’s. The Hancock’s sounds like an interesting option and are appealing from a price and longevity aspect.
I have decided to get the Clubsport and sell my Gt3 in the spring once the cayman has arrived and is dialed in.
Now my next decision will be which tires to run. I though the Pirelli DH were a good option but it sounds like there have been some tire failures on the 718’s. The Hancock’s sounds like an interesting option and are appealing from a price and longevity aspect.
12-28-2019, 07:21 PM
#54
Race Director
Originally Posted by neurotic
thank you for that, very insightful. how does the CS compare to a GT3Cup? if YOU had to pick one and track it for years to come, which one and why?
12-28-2019, 08:25 PM
#55
Originally Posted by 991DUC
Thanks everyone for the feedback. It helps solidify a decision I was already pretty close to making. The safety combined with access to a trackside garage and a good local pro coach helps.
I have decided to get the Clubsport and sell my Gt3 in the spring once the cayman has arrived and is dialed in.
Now my next decision will be which tires to run. I though the Pirelli DH were a good option but it sounds like there have been some tire failures on the 718’s. The Hancock’s sounds like an interesting option and are appealing from a price and longevity aspect.
I have decided to get the Clubsport and sell my Gt3 in the spring once the cayman has arrived and is dialed in.
Now my next decision will be which tires to run. I though the Pirelli DH were a good option but it sounds like there have been some tire failures on the 718’s. The Hancock’s sounds like an interesting option and are appealing from a price and longevity aspect.
I too am interested in views on tires - ones for racing that have best characteristics and ones best for DE if number of heat cycles is a budgetary consideration like with myself.
12-28-2019, 08:54 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by kkabba
Would a clubsport version of a 3RS be much different than a cup car?
I considered to jump right into a cup car and was strongly advised by pro drivers and pro instructors to get my feet wet first with a clubsport. My understanding is that cup cars can even be equipped with ABS these days which is helpful for race car noobs but they require a lot more track suppot.
I considered to jump right into a cup car and was strongly advised by pro drivers and pro instructors to get my feet wet first with a clubsport. My understanding is that cup cars can even be equipped with ABS these days which is helpful for race car noobs but they require a lot more track suppot.
Straight to a cup would be a lot to handle in terms of support, setup and getting comfortable with it. CS much more accessible in all respects and the right platform for most of us.
12-28-2019, 09:18 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
12-28-2019, 09:26 PM
#58
12-28-2019, 09:48 PM
#59
Originally Posted by RENN GTS
I have run through about 20 sets of DH slicks at this point. Laps 1-15 are optimal grip then you hit the first cliff. 16-40, next cliff. After that, you can realistically churn close to 150 laps out of them with a MAX of 12 heat cycles, but by that point, you’re steering then nose of the car with the brake pedal/left foot
I'm terms of slicks manufacturers, Michelin for racing a good choice clearly, but for DE, should we consider other brands that perhaps compensate performance a bit but are better with heat cycles?
And learning about air jacks, brake balance, setting up a video data telemetry system to work with the installed Cosworth data logger system, buying a fire suit, it's all a big step ....
Any others that have gone through this learning curve into a clubsport pls share some learning lessons too.
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cadster (12-28-2019),
Toothengineer (09-27-2022)
12-28-2019, 10:19 PM
#60
I went from tracking a GT4 street car to a 718 CS Competition earlier this year. I had reached the point where I knew that I enjoyed doing DE's and track days enough that I'll keep attending on a regular basis, so it seemed worth it to optimize for safety over the long term. I was fortunate to be able to inspect a friend's clubsport, where I was very impressed with the quality of the cage and the overall build. It is a factory prepped race car and it shows.
For me the running costs of the clubsport are clearly higher than my street car. The Pirelli slicks I've been using cost more than a set of Michelin Sport Cup 2's and I go through them twice as fast. You may also have to factor in a set of rain tires. I don't have any place to keep a trailer (or the non-street-legal car), so I pay for both month-to-month storage and trailering the car to and from the track. I also didn't realize that the car requires RON 98 or better, so I either need to bring 100 octane race gas or buy it at the pump if it is available at the track. Don't forget to include fuel costs in any calculations that you are doing because it adds up very quickly. With my street GT4 I was able to keep it at home, drive to and from the track, and stop at any station to fill it with 91 octane at the pump. You should also consider that a clubsport may depreciate faster than a street GT car and may also be harder to sell.
The car is fairly easy to manage yourself at the track. The data/display system requires some PC software to configure it and download data. I think by default it arrives displaying in metric (Km/hr, etc.) so you'll need the software at least once, and figure out how to use it, to configure it to your liking. If you are in the car belted in with Hans then you can't turn your head and see very well, so it can be a pain to safely pull out of wherever you are parked in the paddock. It is much easier if you have someone with you to wave you out and guide you in.
The car is very easy to drive and it will feel quite natural if you are coming from a street GT4. The handling and precision are amazing and it feels clearly better than the street car. As someone mentioned, the competition version does not have a brake booster. I knew that going in, but it still felt like maybe the brakes weren't working right the first couple of times I applied them. I got used to them before the end of my first lap and was a huge fan before the end of my first session. As you may expect, I feel that I have better fine-grained control with these brakes. For me, this is reason enough to recommend the Competition version over the Track version. For context, I still consider myself a "beginner", but I've already found the brake bias adjustment to also be useful. The rear was shimmying a bit under hard braking and a few clicks of bias adjustment fixed it.
If you are someone who enjoys power then you may find the CS to be a bit low on power coming from a GT3. Compared with GT3/GT3RS it is definitely more of a momentum car. A GT3 will pull away from me on the straights and I'll have a chance of catching up in the corners. You can brake later and carry more entry speed through the corners but in a point-by DE situation you may still rely on some cooperation from a higher-power car to pass since you sort of have to match their earlier brake points to avoid ramming them. That is certainly something I noticed when doing a ride-along in a friend's GT3RS. Once he got a point by he was able to just punch the throttle and easily take it; in the CS you need to time things a bit better to avoid losing momentum. You have to get close enough so that they notice you and then time your entry and exit so that you can get a better exit out of the corner while maintaining a good margin of safety. I think there's a good argument that this is a great skill to learn and practice anyway.
If you care about sound, the clubsport sounds ok to me but not great. I enjoy the sound, but the GT3RS sounded incredible in my ride-along in comparison. The 718 Clubsport is not very loud externally (but pretty loud for the driver). Folks at the track have commented on how much better the street GT4 sounds and how quiet the clubsport is in comparison. I like it that way as it may make it easier to make sound at various local tracks.
I wanted to point out some things to consider, especially with respect to the cost of the car itself and ongoing running costs. That said, I have no regrets on getting the clubsport and my first thought after day one with the car was that this was my best car-related decision ever. My second thought was that I needed to schedule another track day as soon as possible. Just keep in mind that it is a big commitment and hard to undo. Once you drive with slicks on the track it will be painful to go back; once you drive a proper race car on the track it will be hard to go back.
For me the running costs of the clubsport are clearly higher than my street car. The Pirelli slicks I've been using cost more than a set of Michelin Sport Cup 2's and I go through them twice as fast. You may also have to factor in a set of rain tires. I don't have any place to keep a trailer (or the non-street-legal car), so I pay for both month-to-month storage and trailering the car to and from the track. I also didn't realize that the car requires RON 98 or better, so I either need to bring 100 octane race gas or buy it at the pump if it is available at the track. Don't forget to include fuel costs in any calculations that you are doing because it adds up very quickly. With my street GT4 I was able to keep it at home, drive to and from the track, and stop at any station to fill it with 91 octane at the pump. You should also consider that a clubsport may depreciate faster than a street GT car and may also be harder to sell.
The car is fairly easy to manage yourself at the track. The data/display system requires some PC software to configure it and download data. I think by default it arrives displaying in metric (Km/hr, etc.) so you'll need the software at least once, and figure out how to use it, to configure it to your liking. If you are in the car belted in with Hans then you can't turn your head and see very well, so it can be a pain to safely pull out of wherever you are parked in the paddock. It is much easier if you have someone with you to wave you out and guide you in.
The car is very easy to drive and it will feel quite natural if you are coming from a street GT4. The handling and precision are amazing and it feels clearly better than the street car. As someone mentioned, the competition version does not have a brake booster. I knew that going in, but it still felt like maybe the brakes weren't working right the first couple of times I applied them. I got used to them before the end of my first lap and was a huge fan before the end of my first session. As you may expect, I feel that I have better fine-grained control with these brakes. For me, this is reason enough to recommend the Competition version over the Track version. For context, I still consider myself a "beginner", but I've already found the brake bias adjustment to also be useful. The rear was shimmying a bit under hard braking and a few clicks of bias adjustment fixed it.
If you are someone who enjoys power then you may find the CS to be a bit low on power coming from a GT3. Compared with GT3/GT3RS it is definitely more of a momentum car. A GT3 will pull away from me on the straights and I'll have a chance of catching up in the corners. You can brake later and carry more entry speed through the corners but in a point-by DE situation you may still rely on some cooperation from a higher-power car to pass since you sort of have to match their earlier brake points to avoid ramming them. That is certainly something I noticed when doing a ride-along in a friend's GT3RS. Once he got a point by he was able to just punch the throttle and easily take it; in the CS you need to time things a bit better to avoid losing momentum. You have to get close enough so that they notice you and then time your entry and exit so that you can get a better exit out of the corner while maintaining a good margin of safety. I think there's a good argument that this is a great skill to learn and practice anyway.
If you care about sound, the clubsport sounds ok to me but not great. I enjoy the sound, but the GT3RS sounded incredible in my ride-along in comparison. The 718 Clubsport is not very loud externally (but pretty loud for the driver). Folks at the track have commented on how much better the street GT4 sounds and how quiet the clubsport is in comparison. I like it that way as it may make it easier to make sound at various local tracks.
I wanted to point out some things to consider, especially with respect to the cost of the car itself and ongoing running costs. That said, I have no regrets on getting the clubsport and my first thought after day one with the car was that this was my best car-related decision ever. My second thought was that I needed to schedule another track day as soon as possible. Just keep in mind that it is a big commitment and hard to undo. Once you drive with slicks on the track it will be painful to go back; once you drive a proper race car on the track it will be hard to go back.