Road America in GT2 RS & GT3 RS
05-01-2019, 01:00 AM
#181
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I guess I could chip in and have a go too.
I have tracked a 918 extensively, over 1500km, 300+laps on my track Area 27. Another say 50 laps at Paul Ricard, 12 or so at Portimao, 5 at Weissach and a good 60 mins on ice drifting at Levi. (holding a slide in a 918 is pretty much the same as holding one in a Turbo S, and that says a lot to the electronics tuned by Porsche, as there is no physical connection between front drive and rear drive, it's all software, the Porsche quirk remains, where opposite lock is not needed to hold a slide)
Much less on the GT2RS, just 2 tourist days on the Ring and one session on the GP track. Soon that will change.
As Mr Stout have said, the 918 is clinical. I would put it clinically exciting. Until the GT2RS came around, I have never been in a car that picks up speed so effortlessly. I don't find the brakes funny at all, in fact it's very predictable when I brake like in Cup car, hard firm initial press, then moderate it back out, trailing a bit into turn ins. In the 918, I always know there is a full hosts of computers helping me, and the drive from the front wheel bails me out most of the time. It's fun for me now that I know the car quite intimately, I know how much I can lean on it before it bites me, probing a sleeping house cat, it might scratch and bite me but it won't kill me.
As for the GT2RS, it's fun comes from being a 911, most here knows how a 911 handles, and being a RWD 911 it carries the same trait, very responsive to weight shift front and back. Making a 911 dance to one's throttle is extremely fun. Honestly I have to say it picks up speed even faster than a 918, I had been spoiled by the 918's acceleration and not easily impressed, but the GT2RS blow me away. It is just ferocious no matter the speed. While there are also loads of electronics in the car helping the driver, it is in the end only a RWD 911, there is no front drive to pull me out of trouble. Getting bitten by the car is always in the back of my mind, and I think that's what make it fun, probing a sleeping tiger to see when he wakes up and kill me.
Having said all that, a 918 doesn't quite like being manhandled, it demand smoothness, while the GT2RS actually prefers one to be a tad rough I think. Needs more seat time to confirm.
I have tracked a 918 extensively, over 1500km, 300+laps on my track Area 27. Another say 50 laps at Paul Ricard, 12 or so at Portimao, 5 at Weissach and a good 60 mins on ice drifting at Levi. (holding a slide in a 918 is pretty much the same as holding one in a Turbo S, and that says a lot to the electronics tuned by Porsche, as there is no physical connection between front drive and rear drive, it's all software, the Porsche quirk remains, where opposite lock is not needed to hold a slide)
Much less on the GT2RS, just 2 tourist days on the Ring and one session on the GP track. Soon that will change.
As Mr Stout have said, the 918 is clinical. I would put it clinically exciting. Until the GT2RS came around, I have never been in a car that picks up speed so effortlessly. I don't find the brakes funny at all, in fact it's very predictable when I brake like in Cup car, hard firm initial press, then moderate it back out, trailing a bit into turn ins. In the 918, I always know there is a full hosts of computers helping me, and the drive from the front wheel bails me out most of the time. It's fun for me now that I know the car quite intimately, I know how much I can lean on it before it bites me, probing a sleeping house cat, it might scratch and bite me but it won't kill me.
As for the GT2RS, it's fun comes from being a 911, most here knows how a 911 handles, and being a RWD 911 it carries the same trait, very responsive to weight shift front and back. Making a 911 dance to one's throttle is extremely fun. Honestly I have to say it picks up speed even faster than a 918, I had been spoiled by the 918's acceleration and not easily impressed, but the GT2RS blow me away. It is just ferocious no matter the speed. While there are also loads of electronics in the car helping the driver, it is in the end only a RWD 911, there is no front drive to pull me out of trouble. Getting bitten by the car is always in the back of my mind, and I think that's what make it fun, probing a sleeping tiger to see when he wakes up and kill me.
Having said all that, a 918 doesn't quite like being manhandled, it demand smoothness, while the GT2RS actually prefers one to be a tad rough I think. Needs more seat time to confirm.
As for the 918 with a funny brake pedal, that was a prototype at Leipzig built before they fixed the pedal feel problem with a fifth caliper. Funny story should we run into each other some day. Meaden looked pale, and so did Harris, sitting to either side of me when they mentioned the brake pedal wouldn't be reassuring (and it was raining outside, with 918s going by with huge rooster tails). I am sure I looked a bit pale, too. Make that paler.
Yes, I was.
Your car looks great.
Yes. Whether comical or not the debate continues and why not? Yes, the 2RS holds a number of track records. Very impressive indeed. Stipulated. However, the fact that the 3RS puts down times as close as it does at RA with a 170hp and 140 ft/tq disadvantage it has and with no mag wheels and a 1000 ft. altitude handicap makes the 3RS more impressive in my book. You obviously disagree. Then factor in the $150K price difference.
When you say the 2RS is more "potent"... yes in absolute terms with professional drivers I agree if we are talking about fastest lap times. I'm sure Estre, Piilet, Bamber etc... could all lay down faster times in a 2RS than a 3RS on most tracks. Yup. But "potent" is a relative term. Are we talking performance for the dollar? Are we talking performance delivered based on specs in relative terms? Also, in the end these are not "race" cars. Let's not delude ourselves here. They are street cars maximized for track performance. The fact is the 3RS for the vast majority of owners/drivers is more approachable for DE's. More can extract its maximum potential or get closer to the maximum potential of a 3RS and I believe and a number of reviewers, if I recall made the same point. Further this is borne here in a number of posts that at various track days where there have been 2RS's and 3RS's the fastest times of the day were set by 3RS's. So...which is more potent up for debate. When one car allows you and I (not Estre, Bamber etc..). to extract its maximum performance or get close to it's limits and turn faster laps or run with than another car with 170hp more which is more potent now? We haven't even gotten to the more visceral nature of the 3RS yet.
There was a thread here documenting a 3RS trailing a 2RS at Spa at a DE and the performance difference in real world terms at a DE in the hands of mortals . Yes, the 2RS pulled away on straights. No surprise. What was fascinating was how the 3RS pilot reeled the 2RS back in in the turns. Point proven. Both seemed equally potent in that video.
Not knocking the 2RS by any stretch. Just pointing out that which is more potent is up for debate depending on context.
When you say the 2RS is more "potent"... yes in absolute terms with professional drivers I agree if we are talking about fastest lap times. I'm sure Estre, Piilet, Bamber etc... could all lay down faster times in a 2RS than a 3RS on most tracks. Yup. But "potent" is a relative term. Are we talking performance for the dollar? Are we talking performance delivered based on specs in relative terms? Also, in the end these are not "race" cars. Let's not delude ourselves here. They are street cars maximized for track performance. The fact is the 3RS for the vast majority of owners/drivers is more approachable for DE's. More can extract its maximum potential or get closer to the maximum potential of a 3RS and I believe and a number of reviewers, if I recall made the same point. Further this is borne here in a number of posts that at various track days where there have been 2RS's and 3RS's the fastest times of the day were set by 3RS's. So...which is more potent up for debate. When one car allows you and I (not Estre, Bamber etc..). to extract its maximum performance or get close to it's limits and turn faster laps or run with than another car with 170hp more which is more potent now? We haven't even gotten to the more visceral nature of the 3RS yet.
There was a thread here documenting a 3RS trailing a 2RS at Spa at a DE and the performance difference in real world terms at a DE in the hands of mortals . Yes, the 2RS pulled away on straights. No surprise. What was fascinating was how the 3RS pilot reeled the 2RS back in in the turns. Point proven. Both seemed equally potent in that video.
Not knocking the 2RS by any stretch. Just pointing out that which is more potent is up for debate depending on context.
Only spots I might disagree is 2RS is gonna be more potent in most situations (proving "all" would be an interesting exercise), and then which car is more approachable. Would've probably agreed with you up til last week on that score. I found the 2RS more approachable than the 3RS last week (and I am no Estre or Bamber, this is for sure), much to my surprise.
Your point about not kidding ourselves, these are street cars is super salient, in my view, and from that perspective, forget the speed: I found the GT2 RS noticeably more fun. Something else I wasn't expecting, really. YMMV, and that's all good.
05-01-2019, 07:06 AM
#182
Three Wheelin'
I found the 2RS more approachable than the 3RS last week (and I am no Estre or Bamber, this is for sure), much to my surprise.
Your point about not kidding ourselves, these are street cars is super salient, in my view, and from that perspective, forget the speed: I found the GT2 RS noticeably more fun. Something else I wasn't expecting, really. YMMV, and that's all good
Your point about not kidding ourselves, these are street cars is super salient, in my view, and from that perspective, forget the speed: I found the GT2 RS noticeably more fun. Something else I wasn't expecting, really. YMMV, and that's all good
05-01-2019, 09:07 AM
#183
Turbo’s have changed a lot. The difference between say a ‘89 TT and either my 488 or GT2RS is astonishing.
On the street I think the extra HP and torque of the 2RS make it more fun. And I really liked my ‘19 3RS. Value when you are talking 200K plus cars is a silly argument. YMMV.
On the street I think the extra HP and torque of the 2RS make it more fun. And I really liked my ‘19 3RS. Value when you are talking 200K plus cars is a silly argument. YMMV.
05-01-2019, 12:29 PM
#184
Rennlist Member
^ Really good feedback, and I really appreciate seeing this kind of feedback from this kind of use from an owner. Too cool. Will be curious to see if your initial take on the GT2 RS is underlined or altered as the miles pile on, but I think know you are going to have a blast.
As for the 918 with a funny brake pedal, that was a prototype at Leipzig built before they fixed the pedal feel problem with a fifth caliper. Funny story should we run into each other some day. Meaden looked pale, and so did Harris, sitting to either side of me when they mentioned the brake pedal wouldn't be reassuring (and it was raining outside, with 918s going by with huge rooster tails). I am sure I looked a bit pale, too. Make that paler.
As for the 918 with a funny brake pedal, that was a prototype at Leipzig built before they fixed the pedal feel problem with a fifth caliper. Funny story should we run into each other some day. Meaden looked pale, and so did Harris, sitting to either side of me when they mentioned the brake pedal wouldn't be reassuring (and it was raining outside, with 918s going by with huge rooster tails). I am sure I looked a bit pale, too. Make that paler.
But yes, the prototypes do have a funny pedal, the one I drove at Weissach, with Walliser sitting next to me. At that point in time they were trying to calibrate the software to adjust the braking pressure. There is an expansion tank for brake fluid to soak up the initial pedal press, the extra fluid is then bleed back into the system to activate the mechanical brakes after the initial regen braking. That's transition took them the longer to develop for the whole car, even longer than the calibration for matching the front drive and the rear drive.
Have been talking to Manthey to see how I can get their GT2RS parts and setup, less forgiving and more knife edge than factory. They don't sell to North America but a buddy and I was racing with them last year via the Porsche Racing Experience program and we will have at least 4 GT2RS running at our track so it might be worth while to fly one of the Manthey guys over to do all the cars at the same time.
05-01-2019, 01:44 PM
#187
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We did at Rennsport last year. I believe I was with CJ at the time.
But yes, the prototypes do have a funny pedal, the one I drove at Weissach, with Walliser sitting next to me. At that point in time they were trying to calibrate the software to adjust the braking pressure. There is an expansion tank for brake fluid to soak up the initial pedal press, the extra fluid is then bleed back into the system to activate the mechanical brakes after the initial regen braking. That's transition took them the longer to develop for the whole car, even longer than the calibration for matching the front drive and the rear drive.
Have been talking to Manthey to see how I can get their GT2RS parts and setup, less forgiving and more knife edge than factory. They don't sell to North America but a buddy and I was racing with them last year via the Porsche Racing Experience program and we will have at least 4 GT2RS running at our track so it might be worth while to fly one of the Manthey guys over to do all the cars at the same time.
But yes, the prototypes do have a funny pedal, the one I drove at Weissach, with Walliser sitting next to me. At that point in time they were trying to calibrate the software to adjust the braking pressure. There is an expansion tank for brake fluid to soak up the initial pedal press, the extra fluid is then bleed back into the system to activate the mechanical brakes after the initial regen braking. That's transition took them the longer to develop for the whole car, even longer than the calibration for matching the front drive and the rear drive.
Have been talking to Manthey to see how I can get their GT2RS parts and setup, less forgiving and more knife edge than factory. They don't sell to North America but a buddy and I was racing with them last year via the Porsche Racing Experience program and we will have at least 4 GT2RS running at our track so it might be worth while to fly one of the Manthey guys over to do all the cars at the same time.
And yep, that's the setup we tried at Leipzig in the rain. It was very, very greasy in the morning, too. I hear that MR pack is worthwhile, and I wonder if being in Canada helps a bit in the way it did with certain BMWs years ago.
Yeah, I didn't hear about the warmers. Guessing that was a way to extract a best lap on fresh tires, as I've heard the latest tires do their best in the first laps, unlike older tires. I can and will ask. But while a portable lift, tire warmers, a Michelin engineer, a veteran Porsche street-car tech, and a handy PR guy on pit lane are indeed steps ahead of the usual track day or private test, I still view last week's affair as something very casual compared to PAG's 918 and 991 2RS tests at the Ring with multiple cars, factory drivers, race team on hand, etc.
05-01-2019, 01:57 PM
#188
Rennlist Member
Ah, the joy of RL handles. I've long known your handle, but am always trying to piece together who you are. RL is like familiar faces at events, with a twist.
And yep, that's the setup we tried at Leipzig in the rain. It was very, very greasy in the morning, too. I hear that MR pack is worthwhile, and I wonder if being in Canada helps a bit in the way it did with certain BMWs years ago.
And yep, that's the setup we tried at Leipzig in the rain. It was very, very greasy in the morning, too. I hear that MR pack is worthwhile, and I wonder if being in Canada helps a bit in the way it did with certain BMWs years ago.
And yes, the trouble with connecting handles with names and faces.Officially, Manthey do not sell to North America. And Canada also pretty much uses the same laws as the USA regarding 'performance parts', hence we also don't get the factory roll cages.
The Manthey parts will need a 3rd party shipper to come over.
Nick
05-01-2019, 02:02 PM
#189
Burning Brakes
...and I wonder if the Olaf Manthey parts on the GT2RS will be available for the GT3RS. They dropped their lap times adding more aero to the GT2RS, reducing drag and installing their proven Nurburgring/Sebring KW suspension, same exact changes can go to a 991.2 GT3 RS, except the extra weight of an additional water tank.
I would like to see a lap time from a GT2RS with an empty water tank, because after 4-5 laps at Sebring on the typical Florida weather, that's exactly how that water tank will look like.
I would like to see a lap time from a GT2RS with an empty water tank, because after 4-5 laps at Sebring on the typical Florida weather, that's exactly how that water tank will look like.
05-01-2019, 02:16 PM
#190
We also friends on FB And yes, the trouble with connecting handles with names and faces.
Officially, Manthey do not sell to North America. And Canada also pretty much uses the same laws as the USA regarding 'performance parts', hence we also don't get the factory roll cages.
The Manthey parts will need a 3rd party shipper to come over.
Nick
And yes, the trouble with connecting handles with names and faces.Officially, Manthey do not sell to North America. And Canada also pretty much uses the same laws as the USA regarding 'performance parts', hence we also don't get the factory roll cages.
The Manthey parts will need a 3rd party shipper to come over.
Nick
05-01-2019, 05:16 PM
#191
Race Director
I will offer you a water refill service.... we can work on quick refill in the hot pit that way you can win your de. ;-)
05-01-2019, 06:56 PM
#192
Rennlist Member
Somehow McLaren got their 6 point belt anchor bar certified for North America without padding, USA included.
BMW got around the law with a piece of foam zip tied onto their roll cage.
Porsche refused to do such a Mickey Mouse thing like BMW did. (straight quote from them, exact wording from Weissach).
05-01-2019, 07:07 PM
#193
McLaren don't have roll bars. It's their 6 point anchor bar. Not just the 675LT, but the 600LT can also be ordered with such an item.
Somehow McLaren got their 6 point belt anchor bar certified for North America without padding, USA included.
BMW got around the law with a piece of foam zip tied onto their roll cage.
Porsche refused to do such a Mickey Mouse thing like BMW did. (straight quote from them, exact wording from Weissach).
Somehow McLaren got their 6 point belt anchor bar certified for North America without padding, USA included.
BMW got around the law with a piece of foam zip tied onto their roll cage.
Porsche refused to do such a Mickey Mouse thing like BMW did. (straight quote from them, exact wording from Weissach).
The US-approved anchor bar in the 600LT is just that, and does not have the integrated roll hoop as was offered as a factory installed option for the 675 (unapproved for US but approved in Canada). It would therefore appear, at least in 2016, that there were different safety regulations between the countries.
Last edited by Scrappy1972; 05-01-2019 at 08:06 PM.
05-01-2019, 07:11 PM
#194
...and I wonder if the Olaf Manthey parts on the GT2RS will be available for the GT3RS. They dropped their lap times adding more aero to the GT2RS, reducing drag and installing their proven Nurburgring/Sebring KW suspension, same exact changes can go to a 991.2 GT3 RS, except the extra weight of an additional water tank.
I would like to see a lap time from a GT2RS with an empty water tank, because after 4-5 laps at Sebring on the typical Florida weather, that's exactly how that water tank will look like.
I would like to see a lap time from a GT2RS with an empty water tank, because after 4-5 laps at Sebring on the typical Florida weather, that's exactly how that water tank will look like.
05-01-2019, 07:12 PM
#195
Rennlist Member
McLaren don't have roll bars. It's their 6 point anchor bar. Not just the 675LT, but the 600LT can also be ordered with such an item.
Somehow McLaren got their 6 point belt anchor bar certified for North America without padding, USA included.
BMW got around the law with a piece of foam zip tied onto their roll cage.
Porsche refused to do such a Mickey Mouse thing like BMW did. (straight quote from them, exact wording from Weissach).
Somehow McLaren got their 6 point belt anchor bar certified for North America without padding, USA included.
BMW got around the law with a piece of foam zip tied onto their roll cage.
Porsche refused to do such a Mickey Mouse thing like BMW did. (straight quote from them, exact wording from Weissach).
And even Ford sell “off-road performance” in a box.