Road America in GT2 RS & GT3 RS
. Maybe it's coming soon! m
05-02-2019, 10:19 AM
#212
Race Director
Pete: Not sure where I missed the mark. Please enlighten me.
1. I conceded that all things equal the 2RS is faster....again all things equal. It should be with a 170hp and 140 lb/tq advantage. No big surprise there.
2. I pointed out and it was noted by others that it was a surprise the 3RS kept it as close as it did at RA which (a) favors high hp cars (b) is 1000ft above sea level draining at least 3-4% of the NA cars hp, the fact the 3RS did not have mag wheels which at full tilt does make a difference.
3. I pointed out the observation of others here that at DE the 3RS's have been seen to set the fastest lap of the day despite 2RS's being there and running.
4. Posted videos of the 3RS hanging with the 2RS at Spa at a DE in same run group. If you want to argue the 3RS driver was better, that's fine. That proves my point. If they were equal amature drivers that also proves my point that the maximum potential of the 3RS is more accessible to armatures. While Pete S. felt differently my bet is his driving skills are above most armatures as are yours (so you are disqualified.
).
5. On most other tracks the 3RS is within 1-2 seconds of the 2RS.
6. Those time differentials on most tracks is small enough that it can be made up by a mistake, slightly better driver or tires. See #4.
7. Other reviewers have noted the 3RS is easier to approach its limits for most. Not my opinion but my observation.
7. Price and power differential is disproportionate to the track time differentials it seems to me. Disclaimer-my opinion.
8. Measure of "potency" depends on what you are measuring. Sheer power, track performance all things being equal, ability of the average DE warrior to exact maximum performance, performance per dollar? What's the metric?
Just the facts Ma 'm. Just the facts. No bias (well maybe a little
)
1. I conceded that all things equal the 2RS is faster....again all things equal. It should be with a 170hp and 140 lb/tq advantage. No big surprise there.
2. I pointed out and it was noted by others that it was a surprise the 3RS kept it as close as it did at RA which (a) favors high hp cars (b) is 1000ft above sea level draining at least 3-4% of the NA cars hp, the fact the 3RS did not have mag wheels which at full tilt does make a difference.
3. I pointed out the observation of others here that at DE the 3RS's have been seen to set the fastest lap of the day despite 2RS's being there and running.
4. Posted videos of the 3RS hanging with the 2RS at Spa at a DE in same run group. If you want to argue the 3RS driver was better, that's fine. That proves my point. If they were equal amature drivers that also proves my point that the maximum potential of the 3RS is more accessible to armatures. While Pete S. felt differently my bet is his driving skills are above most armatures as are yours (so you are disqualified.
).5. On most other tracks the 3RS is within 1-2 seconds of the 2RS.
6. Those time differentials on most tracks is small enough that it can be made up by a mistake, slightly better driver or tires. See #4.
7. Other reviewers have noted the 3RS is easier to approach its limits for most. Not my opinion but my observation.
7. Price and power differential is disproportionate to the track time differentials it seems to me. Disclaimer-my opinion.
8. Measure of "potency" depends on what you are measuring. Sheer power, track performance all things being equal, ability of the average DE warrior to exact maximum performance, performance per dollar? What's the metric?
Just the facts Ma 'm. Just the facts. No bias (well maybe a little
)
05-02-2019, 10:46 AM
#213
Rennlist Member
I am biased towards this combo too but I still like the Weissach because that is what my car has and I paid for. I love these cars without the Weissach though! The GR with the gold wheels was the first car I have owned that my wife actually commented on liking the color of the wheels! Now I just need to get my Forgeline wheels powder coated the same color so I can get those put on the car.
05-02-2019, 11:29 AM
#215
Rennlist Member
05-02-2019, 11:32 AM
#217
Rennlist Member
I have been following this thread from the start because I love both of these cars. To me they are two of the most amazing cars Porsche has produced in the last 10 years. I love seeing Porsche putting their marketing dollars behind showcasing the true capabilities behind both them on the race track. As a long time Rennlister, I always see threads where everyone is benchmarking how a GT3, GT3RS, or GT2RS compare to other vehicles in the market. After driving a lot of the other cars in the marketplace, these are the cars that I really love driving. It is always a sad time when I have to park my GT3RS after a drive and this is the case with every generation of the car I have owned from the 996 chassis to the 991. They invoke a feeling of pride and love for everything they represent in each drive. Never have I felt this way about any other car I have owned or driven.
Now on to the debate at hand about the GT2 RS compared to the GT3 RS on the speed in the turns. My take on this is the GT2 RS is a lot different beast to tame on a race track compared to the GT3 RS even though both chassis are identical with the exception of the engine. The GT2 RS making 171 HP more than the GT3 RS has a lot different of a power delivery than the GT3 so you have to drive it differently in the turns and out of the turns. Yes in theory the GT2 RS should have the same speed going into each turn as its sibling since they are both on the same tire and use the same suspension. The difference in my mind is the GT2 RS with its higher power and different power delivery of the turbo torque has to be driven slightly different. When it comes to squeezing on the throttle to accelerate out of the turn the GT2 has to be manage more with the throttle pedal. This means the driver who is setting these records probably needs to slow the car down slightly more for the turn in order to be able to start accelerating at the apex so the GT2 RS has grip coming out of the turn. In the grand scheme of a lap time in the car giving up 2 MPH on entry will yield the driver an extra 3-4 MPH at the end of the straight compared to carrying that extra speed into the turn. And by having the extra speed to accelerate out of the turn and carrying it down the straight it will yield a faster lap time. The GT3 RS on the other hand does not have the advantage of gobs of instant torque so it becomes more of a momentum car on corner entry (Can't believe I just said that about a 520HP car). Since the GT3 RS needs to rev the motor out to make power and torque I feel the speed on entry is slightly more important and why we see the small differences in apex speeds.
Also to compare the time Bryan Sellers set and comparing it to what David Donohue set in the GT2 RS I believe both accomplished drivers did an amazing job with both laps. Bryan had not support from Porsche, laid down his lap on a stock customer car, and did it on the stock MPSC2 tires. After doing his lap he did say the GT2 RS had more time in it with a better setup on it and better rubber. David backed this up under similar conditions when he put his fast lap in. And to reference what I was saying above about how the two cars were driven differently Bryan backed some of this up when he compared the GT2 RS to a 911 Cup Car. He said he had to alter his braking markers and speed on entry into the corners with the GT2 compared to the Cup Car because of the lack of grip on entry the GT2 RS. He also had to balance the difference in power delivery of the GT2 RS because of how instant it wants to accelerate compared to the Cup Car. If he wasn't careful with the GT2 RS then it could go to oversteer very quickly which would destroy the fast lap time. In my opinion, what Bryan was telling us is that as a professional racecar driver at the top of his game, the GT2 RS is a potent car on the race track. In his finely tuned skill set he was balancing the car on the limit of adhesion the whole time and struggled slightly with it because of the stock nature of the car, the weight and the tires compared to the Cup Car he ran it against. I also believe that David had to do the same as Bryan even with a better set of tires at one of the fastest tracks in North America.
Thinking more about the GT2 RS as a great track car I do believe that to the everyday driver of the car and DE participant everything said above is what makes it such a great car. And that is why Pete preferred the GT2 RS over the GT3 RS. The torque and power delivery of the car coming off the corners is effortless. It can make the car turn a lap time that is faster than the majority of the cars in the Porsche PCA Club Racing field even in the hands of a novice. It has lots of grip on entry but if you don't maximize it then it isn't as big of a deal because it will accelerate off the corners with any car out there while still carrying fast entry speeds. The Gt3 RS on the other hand has to be driven on the knife edge to make this type of lap time happen when comparing it to its steroid pumping bigger brother. At the end of the lap the driver of the GT2 RS feels relaxed while the driver of the GT3 RS feels nervous and twitchy because to lay down the same lap time they had to keep the car right on its edge. And that is the difference of what turbo power does to the same car.
Again this is all my $.02. It is worth what it is worth but I commend Porsche, David and Bryan for giving us these laps in amazing cars. It gives us all something to debate on the forums and to see how special both of these cars are in the hands of professionals.
05-02-2019, 11:56 AM
#218
Rennlist Member
Sadly I am on the West Coast. The 675LT were all bought by flippers or Mainland Chinese kids who doesn't know how to drive on the road, let alone on track, hence no cage on the west coast cars.
05-02-2019, 12:21 PM
#219
Rennlist Member
Yes I drove there before, That back straight is extremely memorable! You gonna have so much fun hauling up the hill with the GT2RS!!
Sadly I am on the West Coast. The 675LT were all bought by flippers or Mainland Chinese kids who doesn't know how to drive on the road, let alone on track, hence no cage on the west coast cars.
Sadly I am on the West Coast. The 675LT were all bought by flippers or Mainland Chinese kids who doesn't know how to drive on the road, let alone on track, hence no cage on the west coast cars.
05-02-2019, 02:26 PM
#220
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We also friends on FB 
And yes, the trouble with connecting handles with names and faces.
Officially, Manthey do not sell to North America. And Canada also pretty much uses the same laws as the USA regarding 'performance parts', hence we also don't get the factory roll cages.
The Manthey parts will need a 3rd party shipper to come over.
Nick
And yes, the trouble with connecting handles with names and faces.Officially, Manthey do not sell to North America. And Canada also pretty much uses the same laws as the USA regarding 'performance parts', hence we also don't get the factory roll cages.
The Manthey parts will need a 3rd party shipper to come over.
Nick
And that owner is gonna be the coolest GT2 RS owner of them all, right up there with those who have GT2 RSs with rock chips.
A GT2 is a blast to drive, the acceleration from corner to corner is rediculously fun. With my Cargraphic 997 GT2, down the long Mosport straight, I would drive by 99% of the cars and the GT3's looked as if they had let off. Carrying so much speed into the corners, the biggest challenge was depth perception, braking skills, and corner entry.. mid corner and corner exit was not a problem.
Although I turned pretty decent lap times, was I the fastest out there, no.. did I have fun, yes very much so.
I now have a 3RS.2, no question it will turn faster laps then that GT2, still would prefer the new GT2 RS, regardless of lap times vs. 3 RS. The acceleration, the thrill of driving a 700HP GT2 would be amazing.
Although I turned pretty decent lap times, was I the fastest out there, no.. did I have fun, yes very much so.
I now have a 3RS.2, no question it will turn faster laps then that GT2, still would prefer the new GT2 RS, regardless of lap times vs. 3 RS. The acceleration, the thrill of driving a 700HP GT2 would be amazing.
And that section you bolded, is a distillation of my experience with the 991 GT2 RS more so than the GT2s & GT2 RSs I've driven in the past. Depth perception, corner entry, braking skills...no car I have ever driven on track has ever challenged me more on those levels. Not even the 918. And the funny thing is…I found that challenge FUN.
Reminds me of a lyric from a song: "…everyone likes a little suicide…"
I am biased towards this combo too but I still like the Weissach because that is what my car has and I paid for. I love these cars without the Weissach though! The GR with the gold wheels was the first car I have owned that my wife actually commented on liking the color of the wheels! Now I just need to get my Forgeline wheels powder coated the same color so I can get those put on the car.
And yes on GR with gold wheels. Growing up as a kid, I hated gold wheels. Funny how times change, and how we change. It's funny how certain colors and certain treatments work on certain cars, and GR with gold wheels on the 991.2 GT3 RS appealed to me the moment I saw it on the configurator. Sadly I suspect it will end up being quite rare—perhaps (much?) rarer than GT2 RSs in PTS.
So I have a little time between track days and the start of Smokies GT tomorrow!
I have been following this thread from the start because I love both of these cars. To me they are two of the most amazing cars Porsche has produced in the last 10 years. I love seeing Porsche putting their marketing dollars behind showcasing the true capabilities behind both them on the race track. As a long time Rennlister, I always see threads where everyone is benchmarking how a GT3, GT3RS, or GT2RS compare to other vehicles in the market. After driving a lot of the other cars in the marketplace, these are the cars that I really love driving. It is always a sad time when I have to park my GT3RS after a drive and this is the case with every generation of the car I have owned from the 996 chassis to the 991. They invoke a feeling of pride and love for everything they represent in each drive. Never have I felt this way about any other car I have owned or driven.
I have been following this thread from the start because I love both of these cars. To me they are two of the most amazing cars Porsche has produced in the last 10 years. I love seeing Porsche putting their marketing dollars behind showcasing the true capabilities behind both them on the race track. As a long time Rennlister, I always see threads where everyone is benchmarking how a GT3, GT3RS, or GT2RS compare to other vehicles in the market. After driving a lot of the other cars in the marketplace, these are the cars that I really love driving. It is always a sad time when I have to park my GT3RS after a drive and this is the case with every generation of the car I have owned from the 996 chassis to the 991. They invoke a feeling of pride and love for everything they represent in each drive. Never have I felt this way about any other car I have owned or driven.
Now on to the debate at hand about the GT2 RS compared to the GT3 RS on the speed in the turns. My take on this is the GT2 RS is a lot different beast to tame on a race track compared to the GT3 RS even though both chassis are identical with the exception of the engine. The GT2 RS making 171 HP more than the GT3 RS has a lot different of a power delivery than the GT3 so you have to drive it differently in the turns and out of the turns. Yes in theory the GT2 RS should have the same speed going into each turn as its sibling since they are both on the same tire and use the same suspension. The difference in my mind is the GT2 RS with its higher power and different power delivery of the turbo torque has to be driven slightly different. When it comes to squeezing on the throttle to accelerate out of the turn the GT2 has to be manage more with the throttle pedal. This means the driver who is setting these records probably needs to slow the car down slightly more for the turn in order to be able to start accelerating at the apex so the GT2 RS has grip coming out of the turn. In the grand scheme of a lap time in the car giving up 2 MPH on entry will yield the driver an extra 3-4 MPH at the end of the straight compared to carrying that extra speed into the turn. And by having the extra speed to accelerate out of the turn and carrying it down the straight it will yield a faster lap time. The GT3 RS on the other hand does not have the advantage of gobs of instant torque so it becomes more of a momentum car on corner entry (Can't believe I just said that about a 520HP car). Since the GT3 RS needs to rev the motor out to make power and torque I feel the speed on entry is slightly more important and why we see the small differences in apex speeds.
Also to compare the time Bryan Sellers set and comparing it to what David Donohue set in the GT2 RS I believe both accomplished drivers did an amazing job with both laps. Bryan had not support from Porsche, laid down his lap on a stock customer car, and did it on the stock MPSC2 tires. After doing his lap he did say the GT2 RS had more time in it with a better setup on it and better rubber. David backed this up under similar conditions when he put his fast lap in. And to reference what I was saying above about how the two cars were driven differently Bryan backed some of this up when he compared the GT2 RS to a 911 Cup Car. He said he had to alter his braking markers and speed on entry into the corners with the GT2 compared to the Cup Car because of the lack of grip on entry the GT2 RS. He also had to balance the difference in power delivery of the GT2 RS because of how instant it wants to accelerate compared to the Cup Car. If he wasn't careful with the GT2 RS then it could go to oversteer very quickly which would destroy the fast lap time. In my opinion, what Bryan was telling us is that as a professional racecar driver at the top of his game, the GT2 RS is a potent car on the race track. In his finely tuned skill set he was balancing the car on the limit of adhesion the whole time and struggled slightly with it because of the stock nature of the car, the weight and the tires compared to the Cup Car he ran it against. I also believe that David had to do the same as Bryan even with a better set of tires at one of the fastest tracks in North America.
Thinking more about the GT2 RS as a great track car I do believe that to the everyday driver of the car and DE participant everything said above is what makes it such a great car. And that is why Pete preferred the GT2 RS over the GT3 RS. The torque and power delivery of the car coming off the corners is effortless. It can make the car turn a lap time that is faster than the majority of the cars in the Porsche PCA Club Racing field even in the hands of a novice. It has lots of grip on entry but if you don't maximize it then it isn't as big of a deal because it will accelerate off the corners with any car out there while still carrying fast entry speeds. The Gt3 RS on the other hand has to be driven on the knife edge to make this type of lap time happen when comparing it to its steroid pumping bigger brother. At the end of the lap the driver of the GT2 RS feels relaxed while the driver of the GT3 RS feels nervous and twitchy because to lay down the same lap time they had to keep the car right on its edge. And that is the difference of what turbo power does to the same car.
The cool thing with the GT2 RS is that it's not just crushingly quick—like, say, a 991.1 Turbo S—it is very entertaining on track. FUN. Challenging, personally. And creates experiences few other cars can...one of them being top trap speeds. Is that dangerous? Yes. So is rock-climbing, skiing, skydiving, surfing, etc at the ultimate level. I'm not good at or interested in any of those, but I'll take my chances with a GT2 RS again anytime—knowing full well what I am getting myself into. That in itself is an interesting thing to consider, given my fierce love for my family and friends + my sense of responsibility and general aversion to risk. Suspect I am hardly alone in that.
Maybe that's a bit of what we love about cars...the great ones get a bit of the kid in us back out to play.
There's someone else who deserves no small credit here, and that's Andrew Lennon at PCNA—who worked with Frank Wiesmann and the PR & technical teams at PCNA to make this possible…this out of a conversation at lunch last year that recalled Bob Carlson, who used to put ordinary people (journalists) in incredible situations and then trusted the cars and their engineering to bring those people through. It's a refreshing answer to the statements I see from time to time that there aren't real enthusiasts in the game anymore...they're alive and well within Porsche. This was a very cool event, both in terms of the objective marker set down by David on Tuesday and the subjective/experiential side for those of us who were lucky enough to be there on Wednesday.
Last edited by stout; 05-02-2019 at 09:22 PM.
05-02-2019, 06:45 PM
#221
Rennlist Member
05-02-2019, 06:48 PM
#222
Rennlist Member
Go enjoy the Speedster drive! Will be waiting for your impression.
05-02-2019, 09:51 PM
#223
Nordschleife Master
Wow!
The part where I'm truly impressed is what Brian Sellers did on not the optimal setup and MPSC2-N2 tires. Sellers ran the car with the sway bars on the stock setting, which means rear bar at full stiff, stock alignment, and he still ran a 2:17 flat. On Cup2R Sellers would go so much quicker.
Dave Donohue is an awesome driver, but we are getting to the point of diminishing returns, and different Pro-drivers in same car can produce different lap times.
A few things on the GT3 RS lap:
- GT2RS on Magnesium wheels, GT3RS on brick wheels
- GT2RS with WP, GT3RS with heavy sway bars
- I timed a video I have from PBIR (on more humid conditions and a hot day, compared to Road America) from 72mph-149mph, my car did it in 12.6 seconds, Donohue's car took 13.2 seconds for the same speed range on a flat surface. My car runs at full aero. It doesn't make sense, except for the next observation.
- I'm suspect of the GT3RS running a little heavier than it should, just the WP and Mg wheels will give the GT3RS a 0.6s drop, add shifting at 9k rpm, and there are a few tenths there. It will easily land in low 2:17s, and it would be close to match what Sellers did on MPSC2-N2.
There was a test where the GT3RS on Cup2R lapped faster than the GT2RS on Cup2-N2.
King Kong is the King of course, but the true gap for these two cars equally equipped is smaller than what most people believe, and at most track days I attend, there is a much bigger gap on driving skills alone, so for the GT2RS to win a DE Cup Championship, it will still need a top driver.
The part where I'm truly impressed is what Brian Sellers did on not the optimal setup and MPSC2-N2 tires. Sellers ran the car with the sway bars on the stock setting, which means rear bar at full stiff, stock alignment, and he still ran a 2:17 flat. On Cup2R Sellers would go so much quicker.
Dave Donohue is an awesome driver, but we are getting to the point of diminishing returns, and different Pro-drivers in same car can produce different lap times.
A few things on the GT3 RS lap:
- GT2RS on Magnesium wheels, GT3RS on brick wheels
- GT2RS with WP, GT3RS with heavy sway bars
- I timed a video I have from PBIR (on more humid conditions and a hot day, compared to Road America) from 72mph-149mph, my car did it in 12.6 seconds, Donohue's car took 13.2 seconds for the same speed range on a flat surface. My car runs at full aero. It doesn't make sense, except for the next observation.
- I'm suspect of the GT3RS running a little heavier than it should, just the WP and Mg wheels will give the GT3RS a 0.6s drop, add shifting at 9k rpm, and there are a few tenths there. It will easily land in low 2:17s, and it would be close to match what Sellers did on MPSC2-N2.
There was a test where the GT3RS on Cup2R lapped faster than the GT2RS on Cup2-N2.
King Kong is the King of course, but the true gap for these two cars equally equipped is smaller than what most people believe, and at most track days I attend, there is a much bigger gap on driving skills alone, so for the GT2RS to win a DE Cup Championship, it will still need a top driver.
2RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential is. Its the heavy weight in the ring.
3RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential (cruiser weight by comparison) is underscored by the fact its performance based on its power deficit by comparison to many others such as the 2RS, Performante, ZR1, AMG GTR, Viper ACR and 918 shows it performs in a weight class up.
Some comparative track times:
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours GP 2.7 miles
2RS 1:48.74
3RS 1:50.36
Difference 1.62 seconds
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours Club 1.6 miles
2RS 1:15.91
3RS 1:17.68
Difference 1.7 seconds
Hockenheim Short 1.64 miles
2RS 1:03.8
3RS 1:05.4
Difference 1.6 seconds
Road America short configuration
2RS 1.24.80
3RS 1.26,24
Difference 1.4 seconds.
More comparative track times vs. 918
The Ring
3RS 6:56
918 6:57
Willow Springs
3RS 1:23.54
918 1:23.67
Hockenheim Short
3RS 1:05.4
918 1:06.3
Seems at least "somewhat" impressive for the little NA flat six that sells for a comparative bargain base MSRP of $187K. It just took you more than 1.6 seconds to read this sentence.
Also just found this:
Last edited by Waxer; 05-02-2019 at 11:14 PM.
05-02-2019, 11:24 PM
#225
Rennlist Member
This pretty much hits the bullseye as far as what I have been saying.
2RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential is. Its the heavy weight in the ring.
3RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential (cruiser weight by comparison) is underscored by the fact its performance based on its power deficit by comparison to many others such as the 2RS, Performante, ZR1, AMG GTR, Viper ACR and 918 shows it performs in a weight class up.
Some comparative track times:
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours GP 2.7 miles
2RS 1:48.74
3RS 1:50.36
Difference 1.62 seconds
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours Club 1.6 miles
2RS 1:15.91
3RS 1:17.68
Difference 1.7 seconds
Hockenheim Short 1.64 miles
2RS 1:03.8
3RS 1:05.4
Difference 1.6 seconds
Road America short configuration
2RS 1.24.80
3RS 1.26,24
Difference 1.4 seconds.
More comparative track times vs. 918
The Ring
3RS 6:56
918 6:57
Willow Springs
3RS 1:23.54
918 1:23.67
Hockenheim Short
3RS 1:05.4
918 1:06.3
Seems at least "somewhat" impressive for the little NA flat six that sells for a comparative bargain base MSRP of $187K. It just took you more than 1.6 seconds to read this sentence.
Also just found this:
https://youtu.be/qJDH0hNoi8s
2RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential is. Its the heavy weight in the ring.
3RS is by any measure amazing as to what its full potential (cruiser weight by comparison) is underscored by the fact its performance based on its power deficit by comparison to many others such as the 2RS, Performante, ZR1, AMG GTR, Viper ACR and 918 shows it performs in a weight class up.
Some comparative track times:
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours GP 2.7 miles
2RS 1:48.74
3RS 1:50.36
Difference 1.62 seconds
Circuit De Nevers Magny Cours Club 1.6 miles
2RS 1:15.91
3RS 1:17.68
Difference 1.7 seconds
Hockenheim Short 1.64 miles
2RS 1:03.8
3RS 1:05.4
Difference 1.6 seconds
Road America short configuration
2RS 1.24.80
3RS 1.26,24
Difference 1.4 seconds.
More comparative track times vs. 918
The Ring
3RS 6:56
918 6:57
Willow Springs
3RS 1:23.54
918 1:23.67
Hockenheim Short
3RS 1:05.4
918 1:06.3
Seems at least "somewhat" impressive for the little NA flat six that sells for a comparative bargain base MSRP of $187K. It just took you more than 1.6 seconds to read this sentence.
Also just found this:
https://youtu.be/qJDH0hNoi8s
But if there is a GT2RS around, the GT3RS will just be second place, nothing to be ashamed of.