Consolidated 991RS thread
08-06-2014, 02:00 PM
#1457
Flywheels are quite limited. Audi uses a flywheel at Le Mans, but only because its gone for the minimum size hybrid system- a flywheel would be too heavy if they'd gone for a system with 3x the capacity like Toyota and Porsche. The gyroscopic effect of the flywheel also effects handling in the larger sizes.
Batteries on the other hand are getting better. An F1 car's battery pack is ~45 to ~55 lbs, rules prevent it from being lighter, and that's enough to power a 160 hp motor. The complete system, electric motor plus batteries and wiring, likely delivers a power to weight ratio comparable to the very best road-going IC engines, and nearly twice as good as something like the GT3's engine.
Clearly there are issues with practicality, as you'd expect with any technology from F1. The batteries are pushed so hard that their lifespan is measured in races, and don't ask what it costs. But if you step back and consider that just a few years ago teams were electing not to use KERS because they couldn't get it working well enough, you'll realize how quickly this stuff is moving. Hybrid systems are already at the point where they're roughly competitive with an IC engine purely on performance, many would argue they are ahead, even when you ignore efficiency. But while I'm a huge fan of both performance and efficiency, as I've said before emotions are more important to me.
Batteries on the other hand are getting better. An F1 car's battery pack is ~45 to ~55 lbs, rules prevent it from being lighter, and that's enough to power a 160 hp motor. The complete system, electric motor plus batteries and wiring, likely delivers a power to weight ratio comparable to the very best road-going IC engines, and nearly twice as good as something like the GT3's engine.
Clearly there are issues with practicality, as you'd expect with any technology from F1. The batteries are pushed so hard that their lifespan is measured in races, and don't ask what it costs. But if you step back and consider that just a few years ago teams were electing not to use KERS because they couldn't get it working well enough, you'll realize how quickly this stuff is moving. Hybrid systems are already at the point where they're roughly competitive with an IC engine purely on performance, many would argue they are ahead, even when you ignore efficiency. But while I'm a huge fan of both performance and efficiency, as I've said before emotions are more important to me.
08-06-2014, 02:10 PM
#1458
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Code:
1985 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,253,580.00 Jul-87 IP 1986 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $823,440.00 Feb-89 IP 1987 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $948,480.00 Jun-89 1988 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,048,905.00 May-90 1989 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,875,125.00 May-90 1990 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,033,770.00 Jul-91 1991 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,871,470.00 Feb-94 1992 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $781,575.00 Feb-94 1993 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $668,500.00 Oct-94 1994 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $804,600.00 Dec-96 1995 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,949,520.00 Dec-96 1996 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,127,600.00 Nov-98 1997 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,525,820.00 Nov-98 1998 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,613,865.00 Mar-00 1999 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,884,627.00 Jul-00 2000 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,720,816.00 Jun-01 2001 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,997,190.00 Aug-02 2002 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,357,782.00 Mar-04 2003 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,348,609.00 Dec-04 2003 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $189,634.50 Dec-04 2004 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,225,453.00 Jun-05 2004 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,171,564.00 Jun-05 2005 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,238,082.00 Aug-06 2005 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,977,250.00 Aug-06 2006 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,010,518.50 Aug-07 2006 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,589,346.00 Aug-07 2007 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,237,500.00 Jul-08 2008 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,143,994.50 Dec-09 2008 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,584,587.50 Dec-09 2009 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,487,145.00 Oct-10 2010 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,121,373.00 Nov-11 2010 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $656,370.00 Nov-11
08-06-2014, 03:02 PM
#1459
08-06-2014, 03:55 PM
#1460
Three Wheelin'
08-06-2014, 04:08 PM
#1461
Rennlist Member
Not sure. Would hate to see him go because of the GT3 issue.
Bear in mind that there's lots of flexibility built into meeting CAFE standards. See here for more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...e_Fuel_Economy
Among the options, Porsche could always opt to pay the penalty for the relatively low-production run GT3 series and pass it on to buyer. This is a pretty small hit under today's rules:
"Currently, the CAFE penalty is $55 USD per vehicle for every 1 mpg under the standard. For the year 2006 Mercedes-Benz drew a $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards by 2.2 MPG,[89] or $122 per vehicle.[90] According to the government "fueleconomy.gov" website violating CAFE by 2.42 MPG means consuming extra 27 barrels (4.3 m3) (1,134 US gallons (4,290 L)) of mostly imported fuel in 10 years which is worth $3,490 (Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and a fuel price of $2.95 per gallon) that is 13.4% more and also it means emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 in 10 years that is 12.7% more. These numbers are based on comparison of 2010 Mercedes ML 350 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 21.64 MPG (this model meets 2006 CAFE requirements of 21.6 MPG) and 2010 Mercedes ML 550 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 19.22 MPG.[91] So consuming extra $3,490 worth of mostly imported fuel and emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 draws a penalty of only $122 for a single luxury car buyer. $122 is only 0.3% of the price of $40,000 car (average 2010 price of a luxury car). Several experts stated that this is not enough of a monetary incentive to comply with CAFE.[88]"
I don't think that's the route Porsche will go as it's pretty clear they're keen to embrace hybrid technology as evidenced by the GT3 R Hybrid, 918 and the 919. On this front I expect to see hybrid technology eventually make it's way into the GT3 series. I'm less convinced regarding the adoption of turbocharging, at least for the next five years. It goes against the GT3 ethos and also encroaches on 911 Turbo territory.
Among the options, Porsche could always opt to pay the penalty for the relatively low-production run GT3 series and pass it on to buyer. This is a pretty small hit under today's rules:
"Currently, the CAFE penalty is $55 USD per vehicle for every 1 mpg under the standard. For the year 2006 Mercedes-Benz drew a $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards by 2.2 MPG,[89] or $122 per vehicle.[90] According to the government "fueleconomy.gov" website violating CAFE by 2.42 MPG means consuming extra 27 barrels (4.3 m3) (1,134 US gallons (4,290 L)) of mostly imported fuel in 10 years which is worth $3,490 (Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and a fuel price of $2.95 per gallon) that is 13.4% more and also it means emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 in 10 years that is 12.7% more. These numbers are based on comparison of 2010 Mercedes ML 350 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 21.64 MPG (this model meets 2006 CAFE requirements of 21.6 MPG) and 2010 Mercedes ML 550 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 19.22 MPG.[91] So consuming extra $3,490 worth of mostly imported fuel and emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 draws a penalty of only $122 for a single luxury car buyer. $122 is only 0.3% of the price of $40,000 car (average 2010 price of a luxury car). Several experts stated that this is not enough of a monetary incentive to comply with CAFE.[88]"
I don't think that's the route Porsche will go as it's pretty clear they're keen to embrace hybrid technology as evidenced by the GT3 R Hybrid, 918 and the 919. On this front I expect to see hybrid technology eventually make it's way into the GT3 series. I'm less convinced regarding the adoption of turbocharging, at least for the next five years. It goes against the GT3 ethos and also encroaches on 911 Turbo territory.
Hybrid is more benign than turbo in my gearhead mind. You can use hybrid to augment or torque fill a power curve, while turbo mangles it. Hybrid also doesn't kill exhaust sound like a turbo does by killing the engine's distinct sounds and turning everything into a generic whoosh. If hybrid power can come from a lighter source than batteries (an inertia wheel like on the gt3 hybrid car from a few years back) then the future isn't so dark.
I just really really dislike turbos.
I just really really dislike turbos.
Penalities for failing to meet CAFE standards are just a cost of business for Porsche. And while I'm sure they always do what they can to reduce payments, they have always been fined and absolutely will not allow the fear of penalties to dictate the total direction of their engine programs.
Code:
1985 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,253,580.00 Jul-87 IP 1986 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $823,440.00 Feb-89 IP 1987 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $948,480.00 Jun-89 1988 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,048,905.00 May-90 1989 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,875,125.00 May-90 1990 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,033,770.00 Jul-91 1991 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,871,470.00 Feb-94 1992 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $781,575.00 Feb-94 1993 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $668,500.00 Oct-94 1994 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $804,600.00 Dec-96 1995 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,949,520.00 Dec-96 1996 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,127,600.00 Nov-98 1997 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,525,820.00 Nov-98 1998 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,613,865.00 Mar-00 1999 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,884,627.00 Jul-00 2000 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,720,816.00 Jun-01 2001 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,997,190.00 Aug-02 2002 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $4,357,782.00 Mar-04 2003 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,348,609.00 Dec-04 2003 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $189,634.50 Dec-04 2004 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,225,453.00 Jun-05 2004 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,171,564.00 Jun-05 2005 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,238,082.00 Aug-06 2005 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,977,250.00 Aug-06 2006 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $3,010,518.50 Aug-07 2006 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,589,346.00 Aug-07 2007 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,237,500.00 Jul-08 2008 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,143,994.50 Dec-09 2008 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $2,584,587.50 Dec-09 2009 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,487,145.00 Oct-10 2010 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $1,121,373.00 Nov-11 2010 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. $656,370.00 Nov-11
08-06-2014, 04:47 PM
#1462
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
08-06-2014, 04:57 PM
#1463
Rennlist Member
The 991 current sports 3 different 3.8L motors making 400, 430, and 475hp. No need to be so pessimistic to think the detuned motor is the least of these (I'm personally told it's the middle one, but we'll see evenyually). "PDK-S only" is the worst of the rumors I've heard recently and likely a deal-killer for me
08-06-2014, 05:03 PM
#1464
Rennlist Member
Penalities for failing to meet CAFE standards are just a cost of business for Porsche. And while I'm sure they always do what they can to reduce payments, they have always been fined and absolutely will not allow the fear of penalties to dictate the total direction of their engine programs.
08-06-2014, 05:16 PM
#1465
Burning Brakes
They still have some room to tweak the Gt3 without going to hybrid or turbos. They could make 7th gear an overdrive, which would probably be more useful 90% of the time for street use. The could also put on the silly stop start feature to pick up an extra mile or two. Fortunately, that feature is easily disabled.
08-06-2014, 05:31 PM
#1466
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
No, X51 redlines at 7800rpm, 1200 sooner than GT3 and has 10% less power before slight detuning. Extra power and better gearing will ensure the GT3's dominance, not to mention facelift 991.2 GT3 coming soon with even more juice.
08-06-2014, 05:57 PM
#1467
Racer
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08-06-2014, 07:21 PM
#1468
Drifting
08-06-2014, 07:41 PM
#1469
Race Director
