I think if the red one had a black interior it would have brought more than the all in price of $174k. Mark always has nice examples for sale. I expected that one to go higher. I think the black one surfaced a little too soon taking the interest away from the red one. The black one is already at $185 with fees I have no doubt it will go higher. Sadly there were some nicer examples sellers couldn't get rid of a few years back at $125k. The 3.3 market is really going strong seems they are finally getting their place in the spotlight. Most people I know who are looking for that clean unique 964 turbo have given up on the 3.6T market. Impossible to find a nice one and then the prices are just outrageous.

The only ones making anything off these markets is the Insurance companies. I keep raising my deductible and my premiums with it. I estimate it is costing me all in well over $10 a mile to own not including gas each year. I remember when that number was less than a $1. Ironically if I drive it more it will cost me more but who cares at this point. 18 years of ownership and I don't plan to sell now. It is a small price to pay to own such a rare and unique vehicle. Now if I just purchased a few others when I had the chance and they were still quite reasonable.

I have no doubt the 964 market in general will top the 993 in time. It seems based on cars I know that have sold for strong money that even a base C2 in a rare color and condition will top the best C2S 993 already. The 964 3.6T topped the 993TT nearly a decade ago for nice examples. Very little quality product remaining and they aren't making cars like this anymore.

 

The value on the 3.6s (and soon the 3.3s) is in a realm that includes so many other cars, you have to have your heart absolutely set on owning a 964/965 in order to be patient enough to find one(if you are able to at all). I know personally I have always wanted a 3.6, but right now with non-existent inventory, and prices in the 300, 400, 500K+ range, its hard not to get distracted by other cars on the wish list.

 

I spent years searching for mine back in early 2000 and it was tough back then to find a 3.6T worth buying. I love my car and have been offered stupid money for it although after 18 years of ownership I would be hard pressed to spend todays money on one. One of the greatest cars Porsche built but just crazy money and I don't feel comfortable driving a house around with the way others disrespect everything these days. It appears soon the 3.3 market is approaching that same point where how much is too much?

 

Well thats sort of my point as well. Is the 964 a great car? No question. Is it worth 300-500k? I have a hard time with that. I cant imagine searching for years, finding one, paying that much and then feeling ok driving it around. At the end of the day, its a car, and I want to be able to use it as such.

 

I agree with you guys. This is all getting very ridiculous.

Strange for me though, after a similar 18 yrs of ownership, that I have never once even been offered money for mine. Not once has anyone ever offered to buy the car from my wife & I. Not even anyone in the PCA, and we've been driving the wheels off that thing for close to two decades. strange. but whatever. Maybe we have always just given off that vibe of loving the car so much, that they don't dare,.. & probably already knew what the answer was going to be. And for this past decade & half, I can say that it has never even been a 2nd thought to take the car out for a romp, or even a weekend getaway. We still do. I don't fear that. But I also still feel like the car is just the same car we bought all those years ago (ie, not a super expensive car, just a really special car that we always coveted).

Who knows how things will move forward. I can't believe that this kind of market trend can continue for many more years. They can only print so much free money, and the financial markets can only handle so much of this, before the tide turns. But I for one, do not want to look back at the years of 2020 - 2024 and say that I did not at least try to keep things normal in my life. And that means driving as much as possible. Can't drive if you don't have a car.

 

over here in germany most offers are por. almost no dealer lists a price. always a sign of changing prices. better: quickly changing prices.
i looked for a 3.3 spare engine 11 years ago. let some go for 6-7800 €. today they sell 25-69 000. that is completely mad.

on the other side there is stupid buyers. my partner in business used to say: you can‘t polish ****. seems he was wrong - there sells lot of polished **** these days. the few cars for sale are most c rated items. i am sure most do not meet description: wrong milage, modifications not described, repainted ( some partial ) „low milage cars“, hidden (not reported ) damage, and so on.

sold cars get worse, money looses value. that is no oneway road. and once it bounces back lots of now buyers will wake up hard.

 

In early 1993, I bought my first turbo a new but with <1,000 mi 1991 965 leftover. I paid $95K for it, and drove it every day as my DD in the Chicagoland until 2001. I could not wait to get my new DD a 2001 996TT with heated seats, AWD, and a darn cup holder!!! I took very good care of my 965, but every fastener on the chassis was rusted! I skipped the 993 as I found them ugly when new/now.

In ~2002 I could have bought a ~35K mile 1994 Turbo 3.6 from a local "exotic" car dealer schiester for around $52-$54k. That car car was black/tan (or carmel?) interior. My wife said no way and that it smelled like mildew. $75K at that time would get you a very very very nice 94 Turbo 3.6.

It took me another 10 years to buy a 94 965.

 

The problem becomes that anything else you spend that money on that's newer than a "vintage" air cooled car (I hate referring to my car as vintage btw because to me a 930 is a "vintage" Porsche) might depreciate unless it's really rare and then then you can't drive it without devaluing it or risking damage to it. So you're damned if you do and you are damned if you don't.
In the end, it you have the $$$, buy what you want to see in your garage.

 

the 965 market has some legs!

now i dont feel bad for spending a fortune on the mechanicals of my 965.

these cars well sorted are a pleasure to drive!

 

For my wife & I, purchasing another newer (water pumper) 911 has helped us recognize and appreciate the 964 all that much more. There are other newer variants out there that can appreciate (albeit not to the large extent that our 964 turbos have increased over the last 10 yrs), and my opinion is that the 2nd gen 997's will fall into a similar category (yrs from now) due to the time in history (after the 2008 crash here in the US), low production numbers, drivers car with few nannies compared to the new 991's. Its starting now, but I think that in another 10 yrs the 997's will start an even higher appreciation similar to how the 964's did.

YMMV,
=Steve

 

.... another guy posted (in the 997 GT subforum), these numbers,... which were amazing to me...

Currently for sale (late Oct 2021) on the open market:...

Less than TEN (10) 997 GT3's (that includes both 997.1 & 997.2, ... as well as BOTH GT3RS and regular GT3's)

More than Qty EIGHTY (80) 991 GT3's (same 991.1 & 991.2, RS & GT3)

Prior to this recent post-pandemic market bubble (car shortages, chip shortages, supply chain delays),... the 991.1 GT3 price had dipped down below the 997.2 GT3 prices (similar mileage & MSRP comparisons).

Now this recent bubble shakeup has seen the 991.1's jump back up over the 997's again (for comparable GT3-to-GT3, and RS-to-RS).
I suspect that is because there are now soooo many people who do not really know these cars that well,... but ONLY know that they need to dump some of their extra cash (profits from sky rocketing stock & fund investment money),.. into hard goods (homes, property, sports cars, Rolex watches, gold, silver, etc). And to them, newer is supposedly better.

Many of these recent purchasers don't even drive the newer 991 GT cars (maybe a few Cars&Coffee runs during the year, take lots of pics & post on social media sites, to prove they had the car "out" on the road).
It's actually funny to watch. Guys will buy it a year ago, and then flip it, having only added 50 miles (which was to the dealership & back for an oil change).

The RL guys over on those subforums watch these cars like hawks. They have spreadsheets going back ten years, with history on what they sold for, by whom, and what mileage & price points were. It's amazing. Most all of them are investors & speculators (a few of the 997 guys are drivers,... but those guys buy a car & stick with it for a long time, ... verses flipping it).

It's a crazy time we live in right now.

 

Let me start by saying, Steve is my friend. And after spending time with him and his wife Joan I can honestly say he truly enjoys his cars and uses them as they were intended.

Forget appreciation or deprecation , he drives his cars. I envy him for his use of the 964 , as mine is just a thing to look at anymore.

I drove his GT3 and its awesome. I recently have been talking to him about selling my car. A good friend to bounce things off of. He's one of the few ( very few) to drive my Lambo Huracan.
He took to that like a duck to water. It was fun to watch him enjoy that car .
I guess its like everyone says ...we aren't here forever , so have a good time and enjoy what you have earned.

If I sell mine , there's another 964 I have a line on and will try to purchase and drive. In the meantime I enjoy my Turbo S .

Mike

 

On a side note I'm also good friends with Tony ( COBALT ) and let him drive my Turbo S ......geeez I thought he was trying to break it..lol

Tony was a friend to bounce off as I purchased my Bad Boys car the first time, then sold and then repurchased. Lots of long conversations and discussions about values of these cars.

I guess all in all ...my car has brought me more friends that I value more than I do the vehicles .

So I guess value has different meanings to some than others.

 

This really turned into a good thread.
Steve, that GT3 is beautiful. I've driven a garden-variety 997 and I know how competent the water-cooled cars are.
I'm looking for something I can use the way I used to drive my SC. I drove that car fairly often and was never fazed about leaving it in a parking lot.
Unfortunately it won't be a Porsche; anything I would want is now more than I willing to spend and the flag is still up on the things I want to do to my Turbo.
I've pretty much settled on a Mustang GT350. I retired from Ford so maybe it's time I considered a Ford (other than a Pantera )
The great thing about a GT350 is that I can use it liberally and not be tempted to "improve" it like I've done to any 911 I've owned

 

Thanks Mike & Paul.

I'll continue my ramblings....

I should also add that I try not to judge people's reasoning for purchasing cars. I certainly align with folks who love to look at them as art (& thus if they just want to park it in the garage as an investment, than who am I to judge).
.... my only problem with all the speculating & flipping for profit, is that it drives odd behaviors (such as dealers buying from each other just to continue the rising tide of prices), and ultimately hurts our space as a hobby / passion.

I personally believe the 964 Turbo has ALL the factors going for it. By far, THE best looking 911 Porsche has ever, and will ever build. It continues to appreciate & yet it is still truly a blast to drive.

But I also think that I have some of these opinions because I am nostalgic, and the 964 Turbo harkens back to my youth. Everyone has their perspective & views on life, so we go with the flow!!

Oh, and yes the Ford GT350 is an amazing car. Go for it!!!