Singer on Jay Leno
#121
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Doesn't this sort of money get you a genuine 70s RSR? That would have the provenance and soul, that would be the "Patek".
I have huge admiration for what Singer have done; the passion, skill and determination required to get these kind of results are something very special. I trust the cost is proportional to the effort they put in and there isn't huge profit in each car.
The bit I am missing is the "why" when 1/5th the cash gets 90% of the "experience". I guess its just how i was raised but there's something crass to me about spending 5k on making a $300 part "perfect"; a bit like having a gold plated toilet and saying its worth the money because of the antibacterial qualities of the gold. Its just a mask for conspicuous (or even invidious) consumption.
I have huge admiration for what Singer have done; the passion, skill and determination required to get these kind of results are something very special. I trust the cost is proportional to the effort they put in and there isn't huge profit in each car.
The bit I am missing is the "why" when 1/5th the cash gets 90% of the "experience". I guess its just how i was raised but there's something crass to me about spending 5k on making a $300 part "perfect"; a bit like having a gold plated toilet and saying its worth the money because of the antibacterial qualities of the gold. Its just a mask for conspicuous (or even invidious) consumption.
But you cannot mess with a real RS. Too colectable to mess with or modify.
The Singer can run circles around the RS and without having to worry about concours parts and condition.
It is a toy for those who can afford both.
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#123
Burning Brakes
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Maz,
I'm not trying to bash your business since I respect it, I'm trying to make a point and nothing else.
I believe that development of an existing system does not equal engineering (at least in the pure form), in example back in '87 I filled with foam the seat of my inherited AMC Eagle wagon and I remember going around the block until it felt good cause I wanted a cushy ride..
Anyway, I'm not here to preach or convince just to express my opinion.
Keep the Singer thing going, make sure it is the absolute top notch quality that Americans, Italians, Brits, Dutch and other Germans aspire to be... At the end I still believe that a 911 is the best car ever made.
I'm not trying to bash your business since I respect it, I'm trying to make a point and nothing else.
I believe that development of an existing system does not equal engineering (at least in the pure form), in example back in '87 I filled with foam the seat of my inherited AMC Eagle wagon and I remember going around the block until it felt good cause I wanted a cushy ride..
Anyway, I'm not here to preach or convince just to express my opinion.
Keep the Singer thing going, make sure it is the absolute top notch quality that Americans, Italians, Brits, Dutch and other Germans aspire to be... At the end I still believe that a 911 is the best car ever made.
I find this comment ludicrous at best. All of the relevant improvements that fit within a systems approach are bona fide engineering tasks. Singer combines craftsmanship and engineering within the context of an overall system behavior that is to be commended. Getting all the parts/systems to work together in a cohesive framework is where a fair amount of the development money goes.
For example, it seems that they went after a certain look for the car then engineered the suspension to preserve the look while giving the car targeted driving dynamics. These two things likely evolved in tandem so that one effects the other. Keeping this all in harmony is no easy task and is definitely engineering.
#124
Nordschleife Master
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For example, it seems that they went after a certain look for the car then engineered the suspension to preserve the look while giving the car targeted driving dynamics. These two things likely evolved in tandem so that one effects the other. Keeping this all in harmony is no easy task and is definitely engineering.
Their customization starting point was the wheel/tire setup. Per Rob's quotes in the vid, they then "spent 2 years clay modeling fenders to cover the wheel/tire package" and basically "put the right wheel/tire/brake package on the car" and gave it "just enough bodywork" to cover that wheel/tire setup.
The suspension dimensions were unmodified narrow body 964 specs.
If you study these pics, you can see they are still running the front suspension side members in the narrow body configuration. Other details you can see here is that they are running a vacuum brake booster, likely a 993 unit in conjunction w/ a 993 master cylinder.
![](https://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g405/mzfawaz/A0Q8Be4CcAACgV-jpg-large.jpg)
![](http://singervehicledesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IMG_0091.jpg)
#125
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Seeing as this thread is still going, what do you guys think about Singer's originality? I remember their orange launch car was very similar to TRE's hot rod in appearence but built much earlier and I think he was in the sacred r gruppe?
#127
Three Wheelin'
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I know this thread has been sleeping for the last 2 weeks and maybe no one wants to see it come back to life, but here is my 2cnts.
In my opinion, Singer have created a beautiful car, that does what they have built it to do. I'm a fan of Chris Harris as many of us are and he's given it the thumbs up, which can only mean one thing for me.
For many of us buying a 911 means what ever they can afford at the time, some buy their cars will all intend to modify them, some will only put the minimum amount of money into them to keep them going.
I know, that if I was in a position to buy a singer I would probably do so, knowing that many hours and $ have been invested in getting the car right.
Read some of the build threads from one of the UK's most respected 911 specialists and see how many hours they spend getting individual build right for their customers, in some cases these go on for years, now tha can be down to their customers ability to fund the development, or it could just be the extra time taken to get it right, either way, the chances are, you order a singer and you get a fully functioning car that that doesn't need further fettling. How much would the equivalent UK or other specialist build cost, quite possible a similar sum to the Singer?
And which one is more likely to hold its value?
In my opinion, Singer have created a beautiful car, that does what they have built it to do. I'm a fan of Chris Harris as many of us are and he's given it the thumbs up, which can only mean one thing for me.
For many of us buying a 911 means what ever they can afford at the time, some buy their cars will all intend to modify them, some will only put the minimum amount of money into them to keep them going.
I know, that if I was in a position to buy a singer I would probably do so, knowing that many hours and $ have been invested in getting the car right.
Read some of the build threads from one of the UK's most respected 911 specialists and see how many hours they spend getting individual build right for their customers, in some cases these go on for years, now tha can be down to their customers ability to fund the development, or it could just be the extra time taken to get it right, either way, the chances are, you order a singer and you get a fully functioning car that that doesn't need further fettling. How much would the equivalent UK or other specialist build cost, quite possible a similar sum to the Singer?
And which one is more likely to hold its value?
#128
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I'd like to see the crash safety tests on the Singer so that they can be compared to other $US500K cars such as McLarens, the 918 etc because if it isn't appreciably safer than a standard $US30K 964 I'd rather spend my money where a good chunk of the purchase price went into the sort of engineering which one day might just save my life - should I confuse ambition with talent!
Tim
Tim
#129
Three Wheelin'
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I'd like to see the crash safety tests on the Singer so that they can be compared to other $US500K cars such as McLarens, the 918 etc because if it isn't appreciably safer than a standard $US30K 964 I'd rather spend my money where a good chunk of the purchase price went into the sort of engineering which one day might just save my life - should I confuse ambition with talent!
Tim
Tim
#130
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A thoroughly engineered car must & should be safe & we should set those safety expectations appropriately higher when the purchase price is $US500K & there are presentations about high performance, high-quality engineering, high-tech materials & bespoke build. Fine - show me your empirical impact performance data & allow me to compare it to other automotive products of comparable value which are competing for custom.
If the engineering is truly worth $US500K then it should withstand scrutiny with similarly priced competitors & a buyer can be assured as to the DEPTH of the engineering & not merely its BREADTH.
If the engineering is truly worth $US500K then it should withstand scrutiny with similarly priced competitors & a buyer can be assured as to the DEPTH of the engineering & not merely its BREADTH.
#131
Three Wheelin'
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Well, the platform is a 964, the only difference being the front and rear bumpers, wings and I understand the roof panel.
Their aim at the beginning was to build a lighter car, as is the aim of many owners, ie lighten their cars for better performance.
I don't believe anyone wants to build or own a car that is unsafe at the outset, not these days anyway.
They are throughly engineered, in the handling, engine and gearbox, the shell is virtually standard 964. the cost elements are in the detail and build quality etc.
If it meets the regulations of the country its being sold to, thats what matters. You want more, don't buy a Singer, buy a modern super car!
Their aim at the beginning was to build a lighter car, as is the aim of many owners, ie lighten their cars for better performance.
I don't believe anyone wants to build or own a car that is unsafe at the outset, not these days anyway.
They are throughly engineered, in the handling, engine and gearbox, the shell is virtually standard 964. the cost elements are in the detail and build quality etc.
If it meets the regulations of the country its being sold to, thats what matters. You want more, don't buy a Singer, buy a modern super car!
#132
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I'd like to see the crash safety tests on the Singer so that they can be compared to other $US500K cars such as McLarens, the 918 etc because if it isn't appreciably safer than a standard $US30K 964 I'd rather spend my money where a good chunk of the purchase price went into the sort of engineering which one day might just save my life - should I confuse ambition with talent!
Tim
Tim
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#133
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A thoroughly engineered car must & should be safe & we should set those safety expectations appropriately higher when the purchase price is $US500K & there are presentations about high performance, high-quality engineering, high-tech materials & bespoke build. Fine - show me your empirical impact performance data & allow me to compare it to other automotive products of comparable value which are competing for custom.
If the engineering is truly worth $US500K then it should withstand scrutiny with similarly priced competitors & a buyer can be assured as to the DEPTH of the engineering & not merely its BREA
DTH.
If the engineering is truly worth $US500K then it should withstand scrutiny with similarly priced competitors & a buyer can be assured as to the DEPTH of the engineering & not merely its BREA
DTH.
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#135
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The Singer is a beautiful resto-mod, nothing more, nothings less. Along the lines of Chip Foose or Boyd Coddington, Rob Dickinson's imbuing the iconic 911 with his own personal aesthetic. And the details are beautiful--just like so many other resto-mods. I think the real, and only, reason the Singer is getting all the attention is he's the first guy to resto-mod a 911. Put all of the Singer details on a Chevy or Lincoln or Ford, and all of the sudden it is ho-hum. Seen it all a hundred times before. Does a resto-mod Camaro go, stop and handle better than a stock car. Sure does. It'd be hard not to improve on technology that is forty--or twenty--years old.
The Singer is not really about engineering. It's about the artistic statement. Sure, Singer makes all the "new" pieces play well together. But no one is looking at a Singer to learn anything. Compare a Singer to a Ruf, and the engineering thing becomes clear. Look at Ruf when they came on the scene in the '80s. Their cars were giant slayers and truly engineering masterpieces. Remember that video of the CTR on the Ring. Now, that's engineering.
The Singer is not really about engineering. It's about the artistic statement. Sure, Singer makes all the "new" pieces play well together. But no one is looking at a Singer to learn anything. Compare a Singer to a Ruf, and the engineering thing becomes clear. Look at Ruf when they came on the scene in the '80s. Their cars were giant slayers and truly engineering masterpieces. Remember that video of the CTR on the Ring. Now, that's engineering.