Singer on Jay Leno
12-29-2013, 03:54 AM
#106
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I think the wording "Singer experience" is definitely wrong but I understand what he's saying, and it's what i've been saying on here and some other non-Porsche forum i'm on.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.
12-29-2013, 06:47 AM
#107
Three Wheelin'
Doesn't this sort of money get you a genuine 70s RSR? That would have the provenance and soul, that would be the "Patek".
I have huge admiration for what Singer have done; the passion, skill and determination required to get these kind of results are something very special. I trust the cost is proportional to the effort they put in and there isn't huge profit in each car.
The bit I am missing is the "why" when 1/5th the cash gets 90% of the "experience". I guess its just how i was raised but there's something crass to me about spending 5k on making a $300 part "perfect"; a bit like having a gold plated toilet and saying its worth the money because of the antibacterial qualities of the gold. Its just a mask for conspicuous (or even invidious) consumption.
I have huge admiration for what Singer have done; the passion, skill and determination required to get these kind of results are something very special. I trust the cost is proportional to the effort they put in and there isn't huge profit in each car.
The bit I am missing is the "why" when 1/5th the cash gets 90% of the "experience". I guess its just how i was raised but there's something crass to me about spending 5k on making a $300 part "perfect"; a bit like having a gold plated toilet and saying its worth the money because of the antibacterial qualities of the gold. Its just a mask for conspicuous (or even invidious) consumption.
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lbpa18 (05-29-2020)
12-29-2013, 08:32 AM
#108
Race Car
If I'm right only 6-12 of the Singer's have been sold ... the cost today reflects two primary things, and the well established (digi) brand (ala Magnus W etc... riding the early swell in social media hype proliferation):
1. the time to get all this work done - the waiting list length ...hence the premia for resales of late per SQ
2. the need for Singer to recoup their clearly massive development time/spend .. once they've sold 50 - hope they make it - the cost shd begin to fall and they will only then - or after 100 maybe - start reflecting a price more in keeping with what 'we' would do with say $200k.
ie take your stock C2 ... in my view*
* which is admittedly green and only vaguely considered
so I'll be generous in my cost guesses)
... you'd order
1. a full interior in can-can
red leather & Alcantara with deviated stiching from SouthBond or those Germans with fine fingers, inc custom CF seats and recovered comforts just incase - 30
2. rebuild the engine with 3.8, lwf, motec, indep throttles - 30
3. upgrade the suspension - 20
4. remove gutters, sun roof, widen fenders - all in CF - 20
5. 2 pack repaint at some viciously clean place - 12
6. Get two sets of Speedlines from Zuffen - 17's for road and 18s for track ... and a set of 17 fuchs for special occasions - 30
7. various other little touches - remove consol, redo all switches, HID etc... - 20
...et Voila: now you have 10k for shipping the car around quickly to get this done in 3 months and 30 g's change out of $200k for 400 cans of Aviation fuel, a full pit garage kit out and insurance for 10 years
I guess that's what the 'locals' are on about
Two sides to the coin folks.
1. the time to get all this work done - the waiting list length ...hence the premia for resales of late per SQ
2. the need for Singer to recoup their clearly massive development time/spend .. once they've sold 50 - hope they make it - the cost shd begin to fall and they will only then - or after 100 maybe - start reflecting a price more in keeping with what 'we' would do with say $200k.
ie take your stock C2 ... in my view*
* which is admittedly green and only vaguely considered
so I'll be generous in my cost guesses)
... you'd order
1. a full interior in can-can
red leather & Alcantara with deviated stiching from SouthBond or those Germans with fine fingers, inc custom CF seats and recovered comforts just incase - 302. rebuild the engine with 3.8, lwf, motec, indep throttles - 30
3. upgrade the suspension - 20
4. remove gutters, sun roof, widen fenders - all in CF - 20
5. 2 pack repaint at some viciously clean place - 12
6. Get two sets of Speedlines from Zuffen - 17's for road and 18s for track ... and a set of 17 fuchs for special occasions - 30
7. various other little touches - remove consol, redo all switches, HID etc... - 20
...et Voila: now you have 10k for shipping the car around quickly to get this done in 3 months and 30 g's change out of $200k for 400 cans of Aviation fuel, a full pit garage kit out and insurance for 10 years
I guess that's what the 'locals' are on about
Two sides to the coin folks.
Last edited by HiWind; 12-29-2013 at 11:32 AM. Reason: spilling
12-29-2013, 11:07 AM
#109
I think the wording "Singer experience" is definitely wrong but I understand what he's saying, and it's what i've been saying on here and some other non-Porsche forum i'm on.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.
12-29-2013, 12:10 PM
#110
Racer
Love the singer!
There are many ways to improve, mod or hot rod a 911. IMHO singer is the only one to give you something that is improved in every way, is totally unique and highly regarded amongst the "car nut" community. It seems that everyone agrees that the car is excellent and it's the price tag that is unjustifiable.
That said, if the resale values are correct, then if you have the money it's a no brainer.
From my limited experience I think most other modded 911's usually achieve a lower resale price than the sum of their parts?
Subscribed to this one...
There are many ways to improve, mod or hot rod a 911. IMHO singer is the only one to give you something that is improved in every way, is totally unique and highly regarded amongst the "car nut" community. It seems that everyone agrees that the car is excellent and it's the price tag that is unjustifiable.
That said, if the resale values are correct, then if you have the money it's a no brainer.
From my limited experience I think most other modded 911's usually achieve a lower resale price than the sum of their parts?
Subscribed to this one...
12-29-2013, 03:12 PM
#111
Nordschleife Master
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-jay-leno.html
- Best chassis Porsche every put in an air-cooled car? Seriously, comparing the old banana arm setup to the 993 multi-link suspension?
&
" Best chassis Porsche every put in an air-cooled car (964)"
Minute the guy said that I knew he was full of Shyte! They are buying and re-doing old 964s because they don't want to pay for the ultimate air-cooled 911 (the 993), and can't improve it as much.
Instant loss of credibility when he said that and anything he said beyond that was suspect.
12-29-2013, 03:21 PM
#112
Forget the $$$ for a minute that it costs to build a singer, the thing that I like about a singer is the build/detail/thought/research hidden stuff that goes in to the car that makes it for me & there's other 911 builds out there that I love like jack olsens hot rod for example that I bet is just as much fun to drive so there's all sorts of ways of getting fun out of a 911 in diffrent ways & this is what makes these cars great!...but if I was in the fortunate position & could cherry pick a parts bin then I'm sure my own 964 would have many parts that a singer has but the diffrence is I would want to do most of it myself as I love working on my car & that's part of the experience for me & lets me bond to it in my own weird way...next winter I'm in my man cave & going to do a engine rebuild as got the start of valve guide wear so doing it myself as I want to learn as much about my car as possible and it's a learning curve I will enjoy along the way....but if you can afford it and don't like picking up the spanners then why not if you can...
I'm on my x4 
now so have a good new year everybody
I'm on my x4 now so have a good new year everybody
12-29-2013, 03:55 PM
#113
Racer
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I noticed in the video the car retains the original VIN and engine number.
A smart move as cars from HK, Singapore and other parts of Asia have huge import taxes on new cars . A 991 Carrera 2S is $2m HKD (about £160k stg).
http://www.porsche.com/pap/_hong-kon...911-carrera-s/
So if an owner living in HK sends his 964 to Singer to be converted will not cost that much more than a new 991 S (with a load of options) and pretty sure when the car returns to HK will slip under the radar as it has the original 964 VIN. Also will not depreciate like a 991. I have heard they have orders for 2 cars from HK.
As for the asking price, its a business. Do up a business model - premises, staff, insurance, parts etc and then factor in what u need to sell each car for. I think $250k would probably be a min.
The look of it - I am not so sure, interior is cool but not sure on the outside, would like to see one parked beside an early 911S or a '73RS.
A smart move as cars from HK, Singapore and other parts of Asia have huge import taxes on new cars . A 991 Carrera 2S is $2m HKD (about £160k stg).
http://www.porsche.com/pap/_hong-kon...911-carrera-s/
So if an owner living in HK sends his 964 to Singer to be converted will not cost that much more than a new 991 S (with a load of options) and pretty sure when the car returns to HK will slip under the radar as it has the original 964 VIN. Also will not depreciate like a 991. I have heard they have orders for 2 cars from HK.
As for the asking price, its a business. Do up a business model - premises, staff, insurance, parts etc and then factor in what u need to sell each car for. I think $250k would probably be a min.
The look of it - I am not so sure, interior is cool but not sure on the outside, would like to see one parked beside an early 911S or a '73RS.
12-29-2013, 05:10 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
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These threads regarding the Singer are always humorous - people who have never driven, or even seen one in person making uneducated comments regarding the Singer's validity based on their own opinions on what it's components should or shouldn't cost.
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
12-29-2013, 05:46 PM
#115
These threads regarding the Singer are always humorous - people who have never driven, or even seen one in person making uneducated comments regarding the Singer's validity based on their own opinions on what it's components should or shouldn't cost.
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
12-29-2013, 05:53 PM
#116
Burning Brakes
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Nurburger - sounds like you need to set up or request a set up for a rennlist "Singer" sub forum so you and ya mates can compare 500k outlays and the "bespoke"components that make these so amazing. Although you have the right to free speech etc etc you are really starting to wind me up. Ps: who cares what ya mate thinks?!
12-29-2013, 06:03 PM
#117
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These threads regarding the Singer are always humorous - people who have never driven, or even seen one in person making uneducated comments regarding the Singer's validity based on their own opinions on what it's components should or shouldn't cost.
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
The Singer has been reviewed by many of the most respected testers and publications & I have yet to see or read a single negative review regarding the Singer as a driving or aesthetic experience, so I'd have to believe that the 'hype' well deserved.
While at the Quail this summer, I took a skeptical friend (collector and extremely well versed in automotive design and engineering) over to see the Singer. After half an hour of taking in every detail of the exterior, interior, underneath, engine compartment etc, he came away a true fan of the car....
BTW - the guy above that posted the link to the cheap fiber glass stuff for sale in the UK takes the cake....
12-29-2013, 06:11 PM
#118
This is getting a little stale. I'm a big fan of SVD's work but I don't feel the need to belittle anyone here that doesn't agree with me. If I was in SQ's enviable shoes the last thing I'd be concerned about was someone's contradictory opinion of my investment. But I guess it's true what they say about a**holes and opinions...everybody has one.
12-29-2013, 06:22 PM
#119
Nordschleife Master
This thread isn't even close to ugly, no need to close it.
I think we're getting to the point where everyone has throw in their $0.2 so it should start leveling out now.
Hopefully Maz (P1CR) shows up again and can shed some light on the technical and service/warranty questions I had a page or two ago.
I think we're getting to the point where everyone has throw in their $0.2 so it should start leveling out now.
Hopefully Maz (P1CR) shows up again and can shed some light on the technical and service/warranty questions I had a page or two ago.
12-29-2013, 06:34 PM
#120
This thread isn't even close to ugly, no need to close it.
I think we're getting to the point where everyone has throw in their $0.2 so it should start leveling out now.
Hopefully Maz (P1CR) shows up again and can shed some light on the technical and service/warranty questions I had a page or two ago.
I think we're getting to the point where everyone has throw in their $0.2 so it should start leveling out now.
Hopefully Maz (P1CR) shows up again and can shed some light on the technical and service/warranty questions I had a page or two ago.
Lets get ugly brah! Like: why are there so many brits on this forum? Oy!