superquant

Oracle

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe the 911 can be improved. It is a production car built to fit within constraints imposed by accountants, regulators, budgets etc. That's reality.

When you remove those constraints you can get a better product albeit at a higher price. For example Singer removes 400lbs of weight from the stock 964 by using carbon body panels and other trickery. Are you saying that's not an improvement over the original?

As an aside I'm a huge Porsche fan as you can imagine, having owned various GT3 and 911 including a C4S that is my DD. Not taking anything away from the goodness of these originals.

Oracle

I agree that was imposed by the times and conditions and had to compromise throughout. Of course it can be improved but you can't make a Porsche more Porsche. I could be on a diet all day long but still remain the same guy son of my parents and a parent of two.. If anything by replacing parts (lighter or not, CF or not) will not make it any more or less Porsche. The soul of the car came with it.
My point is IMO that I don't need to run my 911 by the Singer production line (although they don't have one since they're manually made) to make it the best car. Your Singer converted car will be faster and lighter but I don't envy that so I can't say that a 911 is a better 911 just because you put $400k on it.

Look at RUF, they even stamp a new VIN since they are recognized as a manufacturer, to me that has more merit that replacing panels since they actually have an engineering department.

A Rolex watch is widely recognized by it's quality of keeping time poorly and yes you can replace some of the guts to make it more reliable but it doesn't mean is a better Rolex..

Anyway, I'm not here to pi$$ anyone. I'm glad that some of you guys keep the legend going by buying/investing/etc. on the Singer product. At the end you help keep the Porsche dream to new generations and that is something that we all agree.

Happy Holidays everyone and the best for 2014!

tcsracing1

RUF stamps blank bodies from Porsche (for the most part they do not reproduce them in carbon.) Singer would title the cars the same if it were 1990. But this is 2013 and you cannot get 964 bodies new from Porsche.
The Engineering in the parts alone at Singer are enough to warrant respect.
The wiring harness, the lights, the wheels, the seats and even the steering system. They are all engineered very well and exclusive for singer. Even the engine and suspension have big engineering behind them.
And using custom carbon body panels with perfect gaps and finish for paint is an art form if you follow body work.
Everything has been improved and or updated.
It is the same basic experince as a stock 964, only with the fine tuning of technology.

I think you fail to see the engineering in the Singer built porsche due to the sticker shock factor.

Had I never been involved in race cars or restorations over the last 15 years I too would have thought the Singer was nothing more then an overpriced butchered 964 hot rod with somebodys name stamped on it.

Oracle

Please tell me what was the engineering firm that developed the suspension? What was the engineering firm that developed and chose the different ratios in the tranny? What were the parameters, specifications and functional requirements?

Isn't this an oxymoron?

I think my definition of engineering is different that yours.. Probably that's where we're not agreeing.. For me a firm like Cossworth for the engine is engineering.. Porsche development is true engineering.. someone to use high grade wiring and LMS headlamp bulbs is not necessarily engineering...
Sorry, but as an Engineer I think the term is overused and oversimplified.

IMO using someone else's suspension system does not constitute that Singer themselves developed it, here's an example:
What's the engineering developed by Singer behind the choice of 993TT Calipers in the Singer builds? Did they hire Brembo and developed the system by racing, testing, etc? or was it common knowledge that those are the best brakes you can fit to a 911?


Again, if I had the money I would use my own 964 as a donor car for Singer.
I don't disagree at all with the fact that it has tons of hours and impressive level of detail.


Question for you TCS:
Whats your opinion on the Rauh Welt cars?

Vandit

Yea, I hate to continue on what looks like a bunch of bagging on Singer, but I haven't been able to identify Singer engineering behind the suspension and brake setup they're running. In fact, in the Chris Harris video, they emphasis how they made the decision to stick with Porsche components since it's proven.

The brake setup is a 993 Turbo brake setup. Lots of folks on here have that same brake setup. The front wheel carriers are Evo carriers paired w/ the 993 tie-rods, lots of folks who are serious about tracking and geometry run those. The "prototype" top mounts they're running are Rennline top mounts that plenty of folks on here have on their car. The Ohlins are Ohlins, on par w/ what plenty of folks here are running such as KW V3 and ClubSport. I'm sure a phone call to Steve Weiner and a credit card will get you a comparable set of coilovers shipped to your door. The bushings throughout are probably from Elephant Racing. The rear spring plates are ERP/Smart Racing, there's a set installed on the lowly 964 that's parked in my garage.


tcsracing1: Can you elaborate on the steering system they're using and how it differs from OEM?

From what i've seen, it all looks pretty basic and OEM steering. I'm really shocked that they decided to keep the OEM camshaft driven power steering pump and all its associated mess of leak-prone plumbing rather than moved to a simple electric pump in the front tub and freed up some horsepower too.


Like I said previously, the value of the Singer is in the exclusivity, the bespoke nature of all the CF bodywork and aesthetics inside and out (i.e. the car just "looks right"), the incredibly high level of trimout (e.g. quilted upholstery in the engine compartment), and the attention to detail.

People keep talking up the $30k custom wiring harness and I just don't get it. It's a wiring harness, it work, it's tucked away out of sight and out of mind. I guess they can create some weight savings from ditching unneeded wires (we've seen plenty NineMeister threads where they strip out wiring harnesses of unneeded wiring) but that's about it. Driving down the road, the wiring harness on any functioning 964 is performing just as well as the wiring harness on a Singer.

P1CR

Suspension: Countless weeks at Sears Point working with Ohlins / Performance Shock engineers to design, fit, test, and tool accommodation for Ohlins TTX damper to a road car.
Gearbox: Brian Copans.. look him up.
Parameters: That's proprietary
Electrics: 18 months of development with Apex Racing and Motec engineers in order to develop a fully operable street car harness/PDMs that actually works consistently in all conditions. Just so happens its 20lbs lighter than standard, fully aerospace compliant, and will probably survive the apocalypse.
Brakes: Yes, in fact we did hire Brembo. Race Technologies / Brembo North America engineers worked to determine, fit, adjust, and test the spec. Here's a secret, they aren't standard 993tt calipers.

So we've covered the dampers, gearing, harness, and brakes. There are XX# other systems and items on the car that receive equal amounts of consideration and development.

Generally, I stay out of these types of discussion, but I'm feeling a bit adventurous this evening and one of our clients is participating.

At any rate, you are welcome to the shop (as are all of you) for a tour.

A visit will assure you that the price of our work is not reflective of profits or artistic endeavor.

-Maz

tcsracing1

Ohlins developed the suspension to Singer's requirements.
(Porsche Motorsports uses Sachs for their shocks as well as hire other firms to develop parts which is no different.)
For example, If Singer had to get into engineering/manufacturing the actual shocks, wheels and lights then the cost would be not feasable.
Singer did not reinvent the wheel. Yes, they used what is known to work and what they knew would be best for their build and improved it further where they could. (Engines, tranny, callipers etc)
What Singer has done is paired all the best 1964-1998 Porsche and Aftermarket parts together and actually make them work in harmony. Getting them to work together and sorting them out is a job in itself. That there is part of the build. It may not be "engineering" as you put it which is a good point as most parts are engineered/built by other vendors for Singer, but it is a lot of research and development none the less which I what I am stressing coming from a restoration background. Knowing what I know, a Singer build can easily eat hours which is how I know why they are charging what the charge.
Just getting a car to sit right with the stance, custom wheels, brakes and fender clearance is a big job. To make it not only work but to look good too.

Curious question. As an Engineer, what would you expect to see in a $400000.00 dollar 964 restomod that would impress you beyond the Singer?

In terms of the Rauh Welt cars, they are extremely well built. He knows body work, suspension and powertrains.
Trouble is IMO that they tend to exagerate the width with the fender extensions to the point that the line between form and function is crossed.
There is a certain point that width can go from sexy to gaudy. The grip supplied by the large wheels maybe worth it from a functional standpoint but to a form/styling standpoint it dosnt really compliment the natural lines of the body, so there is a compromise in these cars.
The GT2 was a factory effort to add more tire within the FIA rules. Rauh Welt has no rules other than the motor vehicle act for his builds therefore he can go as wide as he desires. The only thing is how does he gauge his width? What is the reason to go whatever many inches beyond GT2? Is the overall flow of the car's natural design concept broken with massive extensions? Some who design car bodies will say that it is unorthodox to the concept and trade of body design….

Again, IMO the massive extensions are part of the tuner-custom car-body kit culture in Japan and really does nothing for the 911 body lines but in terms of stance and grip it certainly has merit.

Vandit

Regarding Singer's engine development, I just stumbled upon these links. It gives you a good idea of the amount of people involved in the development of the powerplant.

http://www.apexspeedtech.com/tuning-...e-dynos-matter

http://www.apexspeedtech.com/unveili...singer-porsche

tcsracing1

The steering ratio has be altered as far as i know to work with wider wheels and still have great feel.
Fine tuning detail stuff.
As far as wiring harnesses go, they are a pain in the *** to manufacture and even in crude configuration they can be pricey.
The wire harness used by Singer is a nice piece if you are a wire harness nerd like myself

Vandit

Interesting regarding altering steering ratios. I figured the front track on a Singer is roughly equal to a wide body 964 and 964 Turbo.

I wonder if they are running the front subframes on the narrow or wide placement. I wonder if they are running narrow or wide rear trailing arms. I wonder why they kept the OEM power steering pump arrangement. I wonder if they're retaining the C2 vacuum brake booster or updating to a hydraulic brake booster ala Carrera RS and Carrera 4. I wonder if they're running a 964 master cylinder or upgraded to 993 master cylinder.

Hopefully P1CR stumbles into this thread again.

BLACK-BETTY

This is a fascinating thread.

I still believe that at a fraction of the cost one can build a 964 that out performs a singer.

Now will it look as aesthetically stunning, it's in the eye of the beholder.

My point being, one can have the 'singer experience' in a 964 without the price tag.

Just put the time and money.

freedman

Agreed Frank, and you can get the look alone as well....

http://www.clubautosport.co.uk/SINGE...***%20PAGE.htm

superquant

As I said: you probably also think you can pick up a Patek in Chinatown which chimes like the real deal for a fraction of the original too.

Armchair talk is cheap. Show me.

tcsracing1

Match the Performance. Thats easy. 964 stripper with 3.8 and fiberglass panels. As seen around the world on the track. People out there own fast if not faster 964.

Singer experience is a 964 experience but with high end luxury finishings which cannot be replicated for less.

tcsracing1

that would make a great replica but still not cheap to build as it would be a full restoration with Fiberglass panel fitment which is an art form if done right or an abortion if done wrong.