KaiB

Subtitled - Do what I say, not what I do...

A few weeks ago a few of us were discussing my offer of a "driving instruction/tips/ask here" type thread. Just got a go ahead email from Bob; should it garnish enough attention, it will become a sticky (although at the moment they say there are too many and they are trying to limit stickies).

The idea would be the same as the Racing forum's "Ask the Coach" thread, but kept to the confines of our forum here - without the often brutal give and take one is exposed to over there - and most certainly with the gentle, kind, understanding, all encompasing and wise advice only I (tehe) can give. (Actually, several salty racers are here quite often)

Should be fun and I hope instructive for those who may hesitate to wander over to the Racing forum, ask their DE instructor - or those who might fear that their questions may be too basic to ask elsewhere.

Our cars are wonderfully capable, even in their street trim, but they certainly liked to be asked to do their thing in certain ways. Some of these are typical for virtually all vehicles with tires and some are particular to our rear engined 964s.

Let's have fun...I believe the original questions revolved around braking, should we start there?

Cheers, Kai

tbennett017

Trail-Braking please. 3 pedals, two feet....

J richard

Kai,

964 is one of, if not my most favorite driving car of all time. They are a ball on the track and put a smile on your face. They do need some tweaking from stock but once you do...

They do retain enough of the old 911 tendencies so you still drive the car from the rear which is what makes a 911 so much fun. GL with the thread. (You may find a bunch of the racers in here occasionally, despite the high end hardware I think most of them have had a love affair with at least one 964, I know I have...)

Later,

Jim

HiWind

^ me too for sure. Haven't quite worked out why the 64 is such fun on the track vs my Cup or previous RS ...
but smile is right - it just feels smooth, transmits what its up to beautifully, but can still scare you on the straights - espec with a 3.8

When I watch those early 90's cup vids on the recent threads the 64s look so different in the way they bop & roll over the curbs
vs the moden cups - the 964essence is visible there.

KaiB

Thanks guys. I was fearing we'd start in with trail braking - an advanced technique, but I'll address it in its most basic form. This also allows us to begin to chat about chassis balance, weight transfer and happy settled cars - things which will become common themes.

We're all instructed to brake in a straight line, roll off of the brakes prior to turn in (to a later apex) and then roll in to maintenance throttle. As we advance and speeds come up a few things change with the attitude of the car: Weight transfer is a bit more pronounced from front to rear and the lateral weight transfer at turn in often doesn't occur firmly enough to allow the front to turn in (I don't like to label this understeer as I think we overuse these terms...at our skill levels, if it's driver correctable, then the car is doing well).

In some situations, keeping some weight on the front of the car allows us to ask it to turn in with a bit more authority (and also allows us to carry speed deeper into the corner). We do this by rolling off of the brake later - during and after the first phase of the turn-in. Keeping the traction circle in mind, remember that as steering input is dialed in, brake must be released to the degree that inputs balance each other.

One can see that if the car is on the edge of adhesion this becomes a tricky proposition: a) Too much steering input vs. brake and the car becomes unhappy and b) the brake release becomes critical as all of the sudden we have a turning car and must alter the balance of the chassis by releasing the brake and getting onto the throttle to balance it. This is one of the "touchiest" moments in high-performance driving and something I don't teach until many many other driver basics are absolutely dialed in.

BUT - this is something all of us can begin to address right now on the street...without ever exceeding the speed limits. In our big soft mini vans, pickups, SUVs or family sedans we're constantly hauling kids, groceries, doggies or that fresh martini. As we approach that 90* corner, we're concerned about upsetting grandma or spilling the martini (analogous to upsetting the car on the track) - go ahead and brake into the corner, softly releasing as steering input is made, allowing the car to take a set, unwinding the wheel and adding a bit of throttle. If the Poodles don't slip or their heads don't bobble at all - job well done.

Remember always: All day, every day, for every second we're driving on the street - there is SOMETHING we can be doing to be a better driver.

boxsey911

Great idea for a thread and am looking forward to the discussions. I'm always willing to learn and am sure I'll be asking questions as the thread progresses.

KaiB

Here is a short video which nicely illustrates the balance (or lack of) during a trail brake. Notice that I upset the car as I rolled off of the brake a bit too quickly, probably hit a bit of a bump to further exacerbate the unbalance, and then caught it with the throttle - something Jim refered to as we do indeed drive these cars "from the rear".

At the second corner in the video we can see something we could perhaps discuss....nice late relaxed downshifting - at the end of the braking process, just prior to turn-in. If we do this right, the car is happy...happy is smooth and smooth is fast.

Cheers, K

RSAErick

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing where this thread goes...

And great start with trail-braking; and giving attention to the fact that braking while turning will be a compromise to both braking and turning; and how to transition off of the brakes as turning input increases.

I'm looking forward to hearing how the transition back to throttle is described. Since these cars are 'driven from the rear', I think that it would be helpful to hear mention of what that means.

Vandit

If anyone wants to come to DFW and watch me autocross, I can put on a clinic on what not to do while trying to hustle a 964 around a corner.

KaiB

We shouldn't dive right in to "edge of adhesion" techniques yet, but it's fun, interesting - and informative. As mentioned, some of this stuff can be practiced right at home without ever exceeding legal limits - some of this stuff should ALWAYS be practiced right at home anyway.

Erick, some corners want to be trail braked - some don't, and each driver/car will respond differently anyway, but...

...as we know the majority of the weight in our cars is to the rear. To get our cars to go fast, we have a bag of tricks which helps us take advantage of this fact..."slower in and fast out" is the first one we learn. This helps the car turn in and then takes advantage of the "stick" we get when throttle is applied and the weight shifts to the rear.

Trail braking (later in the learning curve) helps us go faster in while still assisting the turn-in (as discussed above) but here we are - bending the car into a corner while releasing the brake.

The chassis is loaded not only to the new lateral side, but also to the front. At the edge of adhesion, it's doing virtualy all it can do, so when we remove brake pressure we upset it by shifting the weight (off of the front of course). It's this dynamic unsettling which allows the car to get nervous - but it is then our throttle which then helps it remember what to do.

The throttle sends more weight to the rear and helps it stick. The tricky parts of this process are the removal of brake (which alters the weight distribution) that unavoidable slight pause btw. brake and throttle (which seems to lighten the car) and the application of throttle (which shifts the weight once again). At the limits of traction - all of this takes quite a bit of practice and reenforces all of the stuff we learned earlier on - smoothness being one of the most important.

The guys who get good in these little cars are the ones who develop the feel for the weight transfer to the rear, the feel for the throttle which puts more weight back there and the feel for that looser rear end which works to help rotate it at turn-in. Their sense of "car" is not at the wheel or over the hood, its through their butt to the rear of the car.

Thus, without thinking about it, we sense the balance of the car back "there" and understand that everything we ask it to do is a direct function of knowing that the real car starts behind our backs.

Johnny G Pipe

Great thread! Thanks for the videos too.

I have to admit that whilst I have found trail braking perfect for the C4 on the track, and loads of fun, I would be less inclined to do this in off track circumstances.

For me, the C4 has such a nice lazy tail response that I use the good old fashioned rapid lift-off technique most days in street driving my car, to tuck in that nose. Perhaps this is because the speeds are lower..

For the 356 this translates to the 'wischen' technique I suppose, but you need skinny tyres for that.. :-)

PAOLOP

Great thread!
Thanks a lot, Kai!!!!
Paolo

BigMikeATL

Subscribed.

Only contribution I can make

KaiB

You went exactly where I hoped someone would go! It's my firm belief that ALL drivers should practice virtualy ALL of their skills while on the street.

One need not ever exceed the speed limits to do this. Why should we wait until were on the track to:

Heel/toe - each and every downshift under all conditions all of the time until each one is perfect. Why not learn to double clutch into first gear while we're pulling into the grocery store parking lot - and heel/toe while we're doing it. Sure, it may be a bit more difficult if the brake pedal isn't depressed as far as it would be on the track, but DO IT! Always. Get really good at it.

Work on vision: All of us need work on this. It's difficult to suggest to a guy who's been driving for twenty years that his eyes need to go up and out, but this is esactly the case. It most certainly is the case on track: As speeds go up, confidence goes down and along with it, our vision tends to lock over the hood. While driving on the freeway, force yourself to view the road two (yes!) miles ahead. You'll find yourself capable of doing it for perhaps three seconds while rounding that curve at 77mph - practice until you can scan way out there always and I promise your inputs will become smoother.

Work on line: Each and every turn and corner has a turn-in point, an apex and a track-out point. Identify them, use them and practice being consistent with them. Practice braking to a smooth release at turn in, adding a bit of throttle to maintain attitude through the apex and adding a bit of throttle as you unwind the to track out.

Unwinding the wheel: Remember the Poodles in the back seat? If their heads bobble after the apex, you didn't unwind the wheel decisvely. This is an actual physical act that we must force ourselves to do - and one of the most basic lines each DE instructor utters most..."unwind, unwind, unwind". Later, at speed, when we toss in more and more throttle at the apex, this practice pays off.

Chassis balance and weight transfer: Can really be felt in SUVs and sedans so let's work on feeling how the vehicle responds to our inputs and work on asking it to do it all smoothly, i.e., without spilling the martini.

And yes, the timing of the whole trail brake thing can be practiced at home. In my big diesel pickup, it's a great way to get that massive front end to turn it nicely without upsetting the beer in the console by braking too hard prior to turn-in.

HalV

Kai,

First, thanks for starting and supporting this thread!

Second, I'm not sure if this is the type of questions that you're looking for but I'll ask anyway.

I am thinking about getting adjustable coil-overs for my car, but don't have a clue how they should be adjusted? In fact, I don't have a clue about suspension set-up for a 964 (or any car for that matter). Perhaps a few posts on how to understand what your car is doing on the street/track and how to make successful suspension adjustments (adjustable coil-overs, springs, swaybars, etc) to get the most out of our platform.

Thanks again,

Hal